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Israel declares siege of Gaza as Hamas threatens to start killing hostages
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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No electricity, no food, no water…
If everyday people have the choice of sitting and starving or doing something about it, I doubt many would go quietly into the night.
Israel will create the next generation of extremists if they do not kill every single person in Gaza. We’ve seen this in every modern Middle East conflict in the past 40 or so years.
I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.
Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.
Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.
This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.
This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting an genocide mission on Palestinians.
Israel is colonining with supperior force and mostly quite or support world order.
Palestinians are fucked. And have been for decades.
They deff should be fighting for it but this is a futile exercise.
Either way, the world until recently game Israel blank check but public opinion is changing on these human rights violations by an allegededly modern state.
Gen Z in the US does seem to be all that interested in continue US support. So Israel got about 20 years to either kill them off or having to deal with palestiains under different political conditions which won't b as favorable.
agreed. the current generation of political leaders (boomer generation) is pro Israel. no one else really cares that much, other than to garner votes from special interest groups.
Even killing every person in Gaza will just bread more extremists. Gazans are not the only Palestinians and they are not the only ones affected by Israeli oppression.
Israel should negotiate with Hamas NOW and stop the siege on Gaza fully.
How do you negotiate with someone that just kidnapped and executed or planning to execute hundreds of civilians?
What do you ask for here? And what do you give up?
Release Palestinians illegally detained by Israel without trial in place fo the hoostages.
.... And stop settling the west bank, revert to the 1967 borders, etc.
You know what. Sure. I think Israel will go for this.
Release of all illegally detained Palestinians.
In return, Israel gets
Feels to me like that wouldn't work on Hamas' side. Another situation where Israel is the total winner.
Well since Hamas has already executed civilians, and Israel has both the military advantage and support of world leaders, they are not exactly negotiating from a position of strength.
I don't think your plan would even remotely lead to a joint country solution, more like Israel just wins.
I didn't suggest any plan leading to a joint county solution.
You know what would not even remotely lead to such a solution? Kidnapping and murdering civilians.
Just so we're clear, everyone loses here. But Israel is not going to negotiate with terrorists, nor should they.
Ah sorry I mixed up the threads. In another one, I was asking people what they would do if they were Hamas to reach a joint state solution. My bad.
I agree. Hamas are dumb as fuck.
And Israel won't care about civilian lives either. Not wanting to negotiate with terrorists doesn't mean all those kids in Gaza had to die. This is not what "not negotiating with terrorists" looks like. What it looks like is wanting to ethnically cleanse Palestinians.
In your example above, Israel takes all while Palestinians just get "prisoners" back (prisoners that are not really being tried for anything, a literal war crime, so for all intents and purposes they are not detained under any reasonable law and they don't have the most basic of rights)... and Palestine gets nothing.
Seems to me like maybe Israel should negotiate with terrorists if it means less dead civilians. But Israel doesn't care about that. And this is why we are here today.
Palestine also get the benefit of not having their cities ravaged while Israel troops hunt down enemy combatants. They get to keep some semblance of an autonomous nation. They also minimize civilian casualties in their end, if they actually cared about that.
It's very hard to make the argument that Israel should care about less dead civilians when the other side specifically targets civilians. I'm not sure why you keep expecting Israel to negotiate with restraint when they have no incentive to negotiate at all.
What will happen if Israel does not come to the table? Hamas will kill innocent people? And if Israel negotiates and comes to peace with Hamas, the killing will stop? History shows otherwise.
And since that killing innocent part already happens, there's nothing left to bargain for is there?
I also take issue with the fact that bringing accountability to Hamas for what happened is considered one sided negotiations for Israel. How is justice for a terrorist act considered a total victory?
This should never be a "benefit" nor is it a "benefit" to any other group of people.
Yeah just a "fake" self determination, never a real fulfilling one.
If they actually cared about that? What is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like you are making shitty generalizations about Palestinians.
Then don't harbor terrorists. It obviously wasn't a "benefit" to the Israelis who were murdered now was it?
If Hamas cared about civilian casualties, they would never have kidnapped and executed civilians. If they cared about civilian casualties, they would negotiate their surrender.
If you're trying to spotlight Israel's treatment of Palestinians and hoping to garner sympathy, you're not going to have much success when the current world event topic is "Palestinians (Hamas) murdered and taken hostage innocent Israeli civilians."
You're right in your last statement. The world has already ignored Palestinian suffering and the result now is an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Nope, no one would sanction Israel or do anything and here we are today.
Ignoring the false statements you are making. If you want the world to support you, don't commit acts of terror on civilians.
Are you talking about Palestinians or about Hamas? Because Hamas coming "acts of terror" is not justified, and neither is Israel's acts of terror which it commits daily and without anyone giving a fuck.
The world will continue to side with the group that isn't hunting down innocent people in their homes and at festivals.
The problem with what you're saying is that Israel commits war crimes every day. So why should the world side with them?
The problem is pro-Palestinian side trying to claim that illegal detention and collateral damage from war is equal to terrorist operations that intentionally targeted massacres of civilians.
That doesn't work for anyone with a sense of nuance and common sense.
I think you only applied your own logic to Israel and not Palestinians.
There I corrected it for you.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Israel has executed their own disproportionally large share of civilians today.
what are the numbers on that? got any sources to cite?
Here you go
https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2022/05/02/israel-holding-most-palestinians-without-charge-or-trial-since-2016/
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-holds-1200-detainees-charge-3-decades-rights-101905571
I have more.
You don't. There's no negotiating with terrorists, it's too late. There is no good solution. The best Israel can do right now is make every effort to target Hamas, minimize civilian casualties and try to rescue as many people as they can.
If they go nuts and start trying to exterminate in Gaza they'll just fuel the next terrorist standoffs and keep this going for several more decades.
Hey, guess what's going to happen!
I hope I'm wrong.
But I doubt it.
I hope so too, but measured and calm behavior is not what I've come to expect from Bibi unfortunately.
I think the goal might just be to kill every single person in Gaza
You think the ones who escape are going to turn over a new leaf? Or the ones looking on from without?