this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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OpenAI has publicly responded to a copyright lawsuit by The New York Times, calling the case “without merit” and saying it still hoped for a partnership with the media outlet.

In a blog post, OpenAI said the Times “is not telling the full story.” It took particular issue with claims that its ChatGPT AI tool reproduced Times stories verbatim, arguing that the Times had manipulated prompts to include regurgitated excerpts of articles. “Even when using such prompts, our models don’t typically behave the way The New York Times insinuates, which suggests they either instructed the model to regurgitate or cherry-picked their examples from many attempts,” OpenAI said.

OpenAI claims it’s attempted to reduce regurgitation from its large language models and that the Times refused to share examples of this reproduction before filing the lawsuit. It said the verbatim examples “appear to be from year-old articles that have proliferated on multiple third-party websites.” The company did admit that it took down a ChatGPT feature, called Browse, that unintentionally reproduced content.

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[–] [email protected] 93 points 8 months ago (40 children)

The problem is not that it's regurgitating. The problem is that it was trained on NYT articles and other data in violation of copyright law. Regurgitation is just evidence of that.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (3 children)

I've seen and heard your argument made before, not just for LLM's but also for text-to-image programs. My counterpoint is that humans learn in a very similar way to these programs, by taking stuff we've seen/read and developing a certain style inspired by those things. They also don't just recite texts from memory, instead creating new ones based on probabilities of certain words and phrases occuring in the parts of their training data related to the prompt. In a way too simplified but accurate enough comparison, saying these programs violate copyright law is like saying every cosmic horror writer is plagiarising Lovecraft, or that every surrealist painter is copying Dali.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Machines aren’t people and it’s fine and reasonable to have different standards for each.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

But is it reasonable to have different standards for someone creating a picture with a paintbrush as opposed to someone creating the same picture with a machine learning model?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yes, given that one is creating art and the other is typing words into the plagiarism machine.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago

plagiarism machine

This is called assuming the consequent. Either you're not trying to make a persuasive argument or you're doing it very, very badly.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Well, machine learning algorithms do learn, it's not just copy paste and a thesaurus. It's not exactly the same as people, but arguing that it's entirely different is also wrong.
It isn't a big database full of copy written text.

The argument is that it's not wrong to look at data that was made publicly available when you're not making a copy of the data.
It's not copyright infringement to navigate to a webpage in your browser, even though that makes your computer download it, process all of the contents of the page, render the content to the screen and hold onto that download for a finite but indefinite period of time, while you perform whatever operations you like on the downloaded data.
You can even take notes on the data and keep those indefinitely, including using that derivative information to create your own similar works.
The NYT explicitly publishes articles in a format designed to be downloaded, processed and have information extracted from that download by a computer program, and then to have that processed information presented to a human. They just didn't expect that the processing would end up looking like this.

The argument doesn't require that we accept that a human and a computers system for learning be held to the same standard, or that we can't differentiate between the two, it hinges on the claim that this is just an extension of what we already find it reasonable for a computer to do.
We could certainly hold that generative AI is a different and new category for copyright law, but that's very different from saying that their actions are unacceptable under current law.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Have you deleted and reposted this comment three times now, or is something deeply wrong with your client?

[–] [email protected] -4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I don't think it's a question of saying they're "asking for it", that just feels like trying to attach an emotionally charged crime to a civil copyright question.
The technology was designed to transmit the data to a computer for ephemeral processing, and that's how it's being used.
It was intended to be used for human consumption, but their intent has little to do with if what was done was it was fair.
If you give something away with the hopes people will pay for more, and instead people take what you gave them under the exact terms you specified, it's not fair to sue them.

The NYT is perfectly content to have their content used for algorithmic consumption in other cases where people want a consistently formatted, grammatically correct source of information about current events.

The question of if it's okay or not is one that society is still working out. Personally, I don't see a problem with it. If it's available to anyone, they can do what they want with it. If you want to control access to it, you need to actually do that by putting up a login or in some way getting people to agree to those stipulations.

Speaking of overutilizing a thesaurus

I'm sorry some of my words were too big for you.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)
[–] [email protected] -5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

It doesn’t matter how it “”learns””

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