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‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 7 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

407 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers

“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.

When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”

Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.

But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The people you're referring to aren't feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who's never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn't one. I mean, how could they be?

It's like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who's only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.

I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.

Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don't sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they're rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.

I'll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn't dismissive or angry?

If they don't, then chances are they've never read anything about feminism that they didn't see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it's important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you're sounding.

When feminism talks about patriarchy they're not talking about emasculating men - just that it's high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.

Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don't have to. It's being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.

I'm sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you'd be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible

There are hundreds of millions of Christians who have never read the Bible.

You can't pretend that the vast majority of adherents to an ideology are not true adherents to that ideology. If you want to get semantic, reframe everything I've said to say "people who call themselves feminists but have never studied feminist theory" rather than "feminists".

Now do you agree with me?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This seems a little disingenuous considering that the vast majority of Christians at least have memorized some scripture, so they know all the greatest hits. OP's point is if someone can't tell you a wit about feminist ideological literature, or name any hidtorically noteworthy figures of the movement then they're probably not feminists

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

I don't think most people could name important figures, but I think most everyone could relate a list of things women used to not be able to do that now they can do. But regardless, the analogy is breaking down a bit. There are still plenty of Christians who know nothing about the Bible or the history of the religion (most people who do learn about it tend to lose their faith lol).