this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2024
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The solution: normalize women hitting on men
As a man, I will say the very nature of this "solution" is paradoxical. (TL;DR at the end)
As I'm sure you know, some women do hit on men, when they feel safe. For example when they're out with their girlfriends I've seen women turn into absolute horndogs, doing cat-calling, questionably appropriate touching, even in some cases full-on sexual harassment, the whole 9 yards.
Your statement begs the (fair) question: why don't women feel safe openly flirting like that all the time?
In general (i.e. when they're alone), women tend to be afraid to hit on men for the same reason as in this comic, it's just a little harder to grasp/explain.
Let me try: If a woman, alone, sees an attractive man, alone, and decides to "roll the dice" and hit on the man by herself, what are the possible outcomes?
he could be nice, flirt back, and she'll end up liking him and they'll go on a date
he could be nice, flirt back but she might still decide she's not interested and try to say goodbye
(less likely, but still happens) he could give off weird/creepy vibes, and when she tries to walk away, he could try to hurt her or take advantage of her
What you have to understand is that for the woman, Outcome #2 is almost equally scary as Outcome #3. Because women know that regardless of whether they're a creep or the nicest guy ever, a lot of men don't handle rejection well.
I'm not saying you would do this, but ask yourself this: how would most men react if a woman comes up to flirt with them & she changes her mind half way through the conversation & decides to leave? Will most men be okay with it and move on? Or will they take it personally in some way and feel mistreated or get upset with the woman for "leading them on for no reason"?
I have to say, as a man who has interacted with lots of men from lots of cultures, most men, including myself at times, do not handle rejection in a healthy way (even though I've never lashed out at a woman for rejecting me, I've put women in uncomfortable situations out of the fear of rejection).
That is what more men, I feel, need to recognize in themselves, in order for any of this to get better. It's not about normalizing women flirting with men. It's about normalizing men responding to rejection with grace and humility. The attitude of "ah well, better luck next time!" would be so much healthier than the immediate victim mentality most men assume, which is "what did I do to deserve that rejection?". And that is why women have such a hard time feeling safe doing any of that stuff.
TL;DR in order to normalize women flirting with men, women need to feel safe doing so, which will only happen if men can normalize handling rejection in healthy ways.
Though this would probably solve itself if women hit on men as much as the opposite. Men feel mistreated in that situation because they “got their hopes up” and then dipped. If that wasn’t a rare occurrence and they had women hitting on them, say, once a month, one rejection wouldn’t hurt as much.
This is all just theory of course, it’s such a huge societal change that I don’t think anyone can reliably predict the outcomes.
Hence the paradoxical nature I was referring to...
Putting this responsibility back onto women isn't pragmatic. In other words, it will never happen.
You might as well have said "war would solve itself if people would just stop fighting!" Ask yourself: how does that help the reality we live in?
This is why the change in normative behavior must come from men first, or nothing will improve.
“Normalize women hitting on men” isn’t putting the responsibility on women. The opposite actually, most of the times it’s men who berate women for being “sluts” and whatnot. Society as a whole needs to normalize that, not just women.
If by "society" you mean men, then sure...
...unless you're suggesting women need to change their behavior in order to not be perceived as "sluts"?
Careful what you imply, you might come off as ignorant.
Women also berate other women for being “sluts”. Men do it more but it’s absolutely not a gendered issue.
... and where do you suppose those women learned that behavior?
Such judgments have been written, by men, into practically every religious, historical and news-based text for the greater part of the last thousand years, and passed down as dogma to men, women and children alike under penalty of ostricization or in some cases, death.
Brainwashing is not exclusive to one gender. And while inter-gender discrimination is not as well documented as inter-racial discrimination, both have existed as long as oppressors have made it their goal to weaken the oppressed by sewing division among them.
Please, try reading some history before you go on the internet spouting harmful opinions.
Did I say literally anything that would contradict your last comment? I know that, and I agree. That doesn’t change what I said.
You’re coming off as really aggressive for reasons I don’t understand. If suggesting women aren’t completely guiltless is a “harmful opinion” I don’t know what to tell you.
I'm sorry for patronizing but IMO you should really ask yourself: what/who are you playing devil's advocate for?
Because so far you've only made points that make you come off as:
I’m not even playing devil’s advocate for anyone, I just wanted to add why, in fact, the normalization of women hitting on men could be a solution to the problem.
I’m not advocating for anything, because if you ask me “ok but how do we do that” I’d have no answer. Societal change is a hard thing to do and you can’t “normalize” something through sheer effort.
It was just a hypothetical for a what-if scenario, you’re the one who interpreted it as me putting the responsibility on women. I know a woman can’t just go “ok I’m gonna start hitting on men” in today’s society and expect things to go well, it was just a theory about what would happen if we lived in a society where that was already the norm.
You:
Also you:
Okay dude. Whatever you say.
And yes, societal change is hard, but just because you can't think of any solutions, doesn't mean they don't exist. FWIW, there are plenty of practical ways to normalize behavior at the societal scale, some of the more violent & historically successful ones having already been mentioned earlier in this conversation.
One of the most powerful (non-violent) examples that comes to mind: popular film.
That was assuming it was already normalized. I didn’t mean it as “women should start hitting on men in the current society”. I said in that exact comment that it was just a theory.
And if movies worked it would’ve already been normalized. I definitely remember more women than men flirting in movies I’ve seen. But it’s different there because they usually hit on the main character, and most of the times men complaining about that aren’t the ones getting hit on. They’re the jealous ones that wish it happened to them.
(Just to be clear, yes, movies can work in normalizing stuff, just not on this specific topic imo.)
We're going in circles now. I already asked you what's the point of considering such a hypothetical theory (which you admitted isn't practical) other than to distract from the real issue?
Idk what to tell you about film other than... anyone can make a film about anything.
The only thing stopping men from writing (or approving) more film scripts, books and other art about this very topic... is simply the lack of effort.
Every other comment chain in the thread is talking about “the real issue”. This one’s top comment was about normalizing women hitting on men, and I just wanted to chime in about that. It’s not like one chain talking about a different take invalidates every other discussion in here.