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The Kremlin's jets are flying over Ukraine and part of their barbaric land grab, why shouldn't Ukrainians fly over Russia to stop attacks on their home?
Go bomb the shit out of them. Shoot down the terrorist bombers launching missiles at markets and playgrounds.
Ukraine: "I consent."
Denmark: "I consent."
Russia: "Was there somebody you forgot to ask?"
The myth of consentual flights of F-16s into Russian territory.
Same way Russia forgot to ask Ukraine, Ukraine forgot to ask Russia. Seems fair.
The same way Ukraine forgot to ask the families of Jewish people killed in the Holocaust if they could put up statues and monuments commemorating Nazi collaborators including OUN members who participated in carrying out the Holocaust?
forgot to ask Ukraine
After how many Minsk Agreements mediated by the OSCE would you consider Ukraine properly "asked"?
The same ones that Russia and Ukraine hates? They can't even agree on the meaning of them, since they are such an ambiguous mess that doesn't specify anything.
Skill issue. Were I the Ukrainians I simply would have negotiated a better treaty.
Skill issue on Russia's part too. Let's be fair here.
No doubt. Russia placed too much faith in the OSCE and France and Germany approaching the process in good faith. Merkel later came out and said that the Minsk process was just a time-buying exercise so that NATO could arm Ukraine as a proxy against Russia.
Ukraine, of course, knew that it was being armed and trained and had the carrot of NATO and EU membership dangled before it. Circling back to the original point, the fact that Ukraine was being armed and trained at such a rate is good evidence that Ukraine absolutely knew what was about to happen.
Russia placed too much faith in the OSCE and France and Germany approaching the process in good faith.
I'm not sure if you're calling Putin a stupid man that is easily manipulated or incompetent. No politician ever in their lives did anything in good faith, Putin included. You must be very naive to think that.
<...> good evidence that Ukraine absolutely knew what was about to happen.
That's an empty speculation. Knowing and preparing for a possibly are completely different things. Also, if you note the timing on the war, it stared a month before a US company was about to start extracting oil and gas from the Ukraine territory and cut off Russia from Europe as supplier. The reason for the invasion was pure greed and not some stupid notions of NATO expansion or cries for help from Russian separatist groups.
No politician ever in their lives did anything in good faith
"My country has broken hundreds of treaties and wipes its ass with international law, but it's actually OK because it's impossible for anyone to operate differently"
"Anyway, liberal democracy is the best because I get to choose the bad faith actor who will fuck me over."
I'm not sure if you're calling Putin a stupid man that is easily manipulated or incompetent.
They are parroting Russian propaganda. The one where “the west” is stipid, cunning, strong, and rotting all at the same time.
They are parroting Russian propaganda.
As a LLM (Leninist Language Model), I am programmed to parrot Russian propaganda at all times from the basement of the FSB Building in Lubyanka Square.
Beep Bloop.
What? There is no contradiction. The West has a global hegemony enforced by the world's biggest, most expensive murder organization. A lot of work and intelligent minds go into maintaining this hegemony, but the society it's built on is falling apart.
I don't think you would be calling this "propaganda" if you spoke to any regular people around you.
Reality is now Russian propaganda.
Say what you want, but at least Putin has proven he knows what a redline means.
I'm not sure if you're calling Putin a stupid man that is easily manipulated or incompetent. No politician ever in their lives did anything in good faith, Putin included. You must be very naive to think that.
Very cool that the argument boils down to "of course we were going to trick you, you are stupid for being tricked." I guess the lesson the world should learn is to never trust a Euroid and to respond to European peace overtures with uncompromising force.
Would you say Ukraine was "preparing for a possibly (sic)" when its Nazi special forces were creating Hitlerjugend-style child soldier training camps?
Lmao what a cop out. At bare minimum Ukraine should have stopped allowing fascist paramilitary groups to shell civilians in the east, an act that was illegal a half a dozen other ways, too. And Angela Merkel admitted the agreements were not an attempt to actually resolve that issue or the issue of the west installing a hostile foreign government via coup, but to give Ukraine time to arm up to fight Russia:
In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.
On the other hand, who gives a shit if Russia burns for their ongoing aggression.
Not many people complain when an entire country reaches the "find out" part of "fuck around and find out" when they've had many years to course correct.
This means it is the US who has authorized them flying over Russian territory, Usually it is the country of origin that holds the right to specify how those arms should not be used.
Good thing Russia allowed Ukraine to use all those Migs and SUs against them.
The country of origin of those jets no longer exists. The USSR fell a while ago.
The problem with the Danes is that they have been so sheltered for so long that the concept of their actions having consequences simply don't register any more. Everything is going to be welfare, roast pork and padding ourselves on the back for all eternity, war and disaster and calamity is something they have in "the warm countries", it will never affect us.
So what happens if some Danish military bases get bombed or a frigate gets sunk with dozens of dead? Does Denmark pull back or call for WWIII?
Lots of commotion internally in Denmark while the reaction would be decided upon in Washington.
I don't think Russia wants to retaliate so directly though. As I see it they have very little to gain from taking that bait. More likely acts of retaliation would be plausibly deniable cyber attacks or supporting some proxy in attacking Danish interests abroad. If I was a Danish troop in Iraq, I would be watching my back after this.
I doubt Russia would escalate in that way. If it happens, I'd imagine a "tit for tat" thing happening, where the Nordic countries sink the Russian Baltic Fleet and say that they consider the matter resolved.
When you say nordic countries, you mean sweden, norway, and finland would do a massive escalation, and open themselves up to retaliation? Surely they'd do the calculus and see there's nothing to gain and a lot to lose? I've heard the political situation in the EU was not great, but I expect that kind of hawkishness here on the other side of the planet, not from the countries that actually stand to lose anything.
It's not hawkish, it's the opposite. If there is no retaliation, then that signals that NATO is a joke, and bombing member states is fair game. If we don't shoot back, we lose our own protection, and we are much, much closer to war.
Nobody wants a precedent where NATO is called into question. Remember when there was a stray Russian missile that went into Poland, and immediately half of NATO leadership was there, and it was quickly swept under a rug? If Poland pulled the trigger there, NATO would have went to war.
The point is, Article 5 is not escalation, it's the status quo. If someone gets attacked, we all retaliate. Fucking that up would actually be a massive escalation against peace in Europe.
Retaliation is the opposite of hawkish? Are you listening to yourself?
The only reason there is no war between NATO member states and Russia is NATO itself. If a NATO member gets attacked and NATO does not retaliate, NATO ceases to exist. If there is no NATO, there is no defence for the Baltics, no defence for Moldova, no defence for Poland, and no defence against the stated goal of Russia, the finlandization of the whole of Europe.
A policy of retaliation against warmongers is a policy of promoting peace.
the stated goal of Russia, the finlandization of the whole of Europe.
Would love a source for whatever you think this means
A policy of retaliation against warmongers is a policy of promoting peace.
The U.S., by far, is the most aggressive country on the planet. You certainly don't apply this logic to it, and there has not been a single time retaliation against the U.S. has deterred it from future aggression.
Finlandization comes from Dugin, and his book which has so far defined Russian foreign policy objectives. We can argue back and forth whether Putin and his government agrees with those goals, but support for right wing parties across Europe, dividing the US along racist lines, and supporting Brexit speaks to it being true.
The US is not an immediate military threat for Europe. Economic, ideological, maybe, but not military. Russia is. So US bad, yes, but Russia bad too, and Russia is here.
So "Finalndization" (again, whatever you think that means) is not in fact "the stated goal of Russia." You claim (without sourcing) it's from a Russian academic and then acknowledge there's room to speculate how much impact that academic's work has on the Russian government.
The US is not an immediate military threat for Europe.
You're changing the subject. I said:
All I'm saying that sitting here in Rotterdam, if the Ukrainian bro asks if they can bomb the peeps who said they will nuke Rotterdam, I don't see people here saying no. Nobody here wants to fight anyone, WWII still has some open scars here. But so does MH370.
The US might be a fucktard, but it's not them threatening us militarily currently. And on changing the subject, why are we talking about the US again?
the peeps who said they will nuke Rotterdam
Who is saying this? Russia sure isn't. You keep making up threats.
And on changing the subject, why are we talking about the US again?
If you actually believe that aggressive, militaristic countries should face retaliation to get them to back down -- if you actually hold that as a principle -- you would apply it to all such countries, and the #1 example of that is the U.S.
You don't apply it to the U.S., which shows you don't actually believe it. You only apply it to countries you've already deemed enemies.
You keep saying Russia is your enemy because they're threatening you, but all you've mentioned are invented threats, not anything Russia has actually said or did towards your country.
Two days ago, a Duma member suggested nuking Rotterdam. The same thing happened months ago, and every few months in the past two years.
Russian soldiers also actually shot down an airliner full of Dutch people, and tried covering it up.
I didn't say that I support US policy, and you keep trying to deflect by pointing to them saying they are worse. And they may be, but they aren't currently threatening military action against the EU.
Two days ago, a Duma member suggested nuking Rotterdam.
Show me a source. Earlier in this conversation you said something was the "stated policy of Russia," then when you went to find a source it turned out it was not.
Russian soldiers also actually shot down an airliner
Presumably you're referring to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. That was not shot down by Russia, but by Ukranian separatists using a Russian-supplied weapon. I'm not aware of any evidence that anyone intentionally targeted it, either, much less intentionally targeted it because it had Dutch citizens. Non-Russians mistaking an airliner for a military target is not the same as Russia targeting you.
I didn't say that I support US policy
OK, so what military retaliation against the U.S. do you endorse? Do you apply your policy of retaliation to everyone, or not? That's what I'm getting at -- you do not apply your policy of retaliation to everyone, only countries you've already decided are Bad Countries. This isn't deflecting, it's showing that you are not being honest when you say "aggressive countries should see military retaliation."
Earlier in this conversation you said something was the “stated policy of Russia,”
Dugin's book "The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia" has had a profound impact on Russian politics, shortly after its release the Duma had created a geopolitics committee staffed by Dugin's adherents, it became a textbook for the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military. So is Dugin's book Russia's official foreign policy? No. Does the book have a profound impact on Russian politics, and is it a guiding star for Russian ambitions?
Absolutely. If you ask Dugin, the only thing Putin is doing wrong is that he's not doing it fast enough.
Dugin's Russian faction is basically seeking the establishment of a new Russian Empire, and its methods - alliance with Iran, stoking ethnic tensions to encourage separatism in countries like Georgia, Azerbaijan or Ukraine and isolationism in the US or the UK are very visibly used by Russian foreign policy.
Russia officially says it's not doing it, but Russia looks like Dugin, swims like Dugin and quacks like Dugin.
Show me a source.
For Russia threatening the Rotterdam Havens with nuclear strikes?
Here:
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-official-nato-target-nuclear-strike-netherlands-1908346
INB4 "well, it's newsweek", they are sourcing a Duma member on Russian state television.
And also:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67222213 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60547473
Presumably you’re referring to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. That was not shot down by Russia, but by Ukranian separatists using a Russian-supplied weapon.
Ukrainian separatists in Russian "little green men" uniforms, coming from Russia, retreating back into Russia, with a launcher identified as belonging to the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, speaking with Moscow accents? After Russia claimed first that the plane they shot down was a Ukrainian An-26, then that they didn't shoot down anything, it was a Ukrainian Su-25 with its short range infrared missiles? And after that, claimed it was actually a Ukrainian Buk? And now it's "it wasn't us, the Ukrainian Russian separatists are completely independent of us"? Is the Netherlands supposed to accept this fourth story after three proven lies and after independently confirming the responsibility of Russian citizens, and after Russia refused to be transparent during the investigation?
OK, so what military retaliation against the U.S. do you endorse?
Proportional retaliation for their aggressive actions. Right now, it's mostly trade tariff back-and-forth over chicken and light trucks and stuff. The US has not been engaged in military action against European militaries since WWII. I would support diplomatic rebukes over the spy scandals of the last decade, though.
And I'm saying the same thing against Russia. Russian sponsored insurgents and Russian spies have attacked European civilians? Donating and selling weapons to this other neighbouring state which is fighting a defensive war against them is completely fair game.
Stated policy means stated policy, not "a bunch of bureaucrats were assigned the same book once."
they are sourcing a Duma member on Russian state television
Fair enough. It's still a far cry from anyone in a position to actually use nukes saying anything like that, though. Here's the stated policy of Russia on the topic:
Putin reiterated Russia’s formal position on the use of nuclear weapons in a statement to the Russian HRC on December 7 with no noteworthy changes. Putin claimed that the threat of nuclear war is growing, but that Russia will not be the first to employ nuclear weapons. Putin added, however, that if Russia is not the first to initiate the first use of nuclear weapons, it will also not be the second to do so, because the “possibility of using [a nuclear weapon] in the event of a nuclear strike on [Russian] territory are very limited.” Putin reiterated that Russian nuclear doctrine is premised on self-defense and stated that any Russian nuclear use would be retaliatory... Putin’s statements support ISW’s previous assessment that while Russian officials may engage in forms of nuclear saber-rattling as part of an information operation meant to undermine Western support for Ukraine, Russian officials have no intention of actually using them on the battlefield.
Why does some random Duma member's offhand comments mean more than this?
Ukrainian separatists in Russian "little green men" uniforms
So your theory is that Russia intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, targeting the Netherlands specifically... why, exactly? Do you think they're mustache-twirling villains who do evil stuff because evil is fun?
Proportional retaliation for their aggressive actions.
Ok, what proportional retaliation does the U.S. deserve for Iraq?
Stated policy means stated policy, not “a bunch of bureaucrats were assigned the same book once.”
It's the top bureaucrats of Russia, and they have been quacking in unison with the book ever since.
Why does some random Duma member’s offhand comments mean more than this?
Because they are a representative of the government of the country, and have influence over the shaping of the policy of the country. It doesn't mean more, it is what you call a threat. You can say it's an empty threat, but it's still a threat nonetheless. The Russians are basically threatening us, then officially saying "don't worry, we're just lying!", then expect us to believe the lie they say is a lie instead of the possible lie they say is not a lie.
If it is not a valid point to make from that Duma member, I'd expect him to get seriously reprimanded, impeached from the Duma and possibly put in jail for threatening the national security of Russia. It still happened and is happening regularly with Russian government officials, on Russian state television.
So your theory is that Russia intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, targeting the Netherlands specifically… why, exactly? Do you think they’re mustache-twirling villains who do evil stuff because evil is fun?
Not my theory, but the conclusion of the quite transparently evidenced investigation done by a multi-country team is that members of the Russian Armed Forces took a heavy anti-aircraft missile launcher owned by the Russian Armed Forces into the territory internationally recognized as belonging to the sovereign state of Ukraine. They used that launcher to engage what they thought was a medium weight military transport plane operated by the military of Ukraine, a country they were not at war with. Due to their own incompetence, what they engaged was a Malaysian heavy airline passenger transport with mostly Dutch passengers aboard.
Just to make it clear, they were so grossly incompetent that they saw a plane travelling above 36000 ft - way above it most likely - going 500 knots, and they identified it as a plane with a service ceiling of 24000 ft with a cruise speed of 240 knots. This is on top of the fact that they could have literally gone on Flightradar and saw an airliner scheduled to fly in that area at that time, and that the airliner was equipped with ADS-B-out systems which meant that they could have checked that it was an airliner with a gadget that a hobbyist can put together at home without giving their position away. The aircraft was literally screaming "I'm airliner registration 9M-MRD, at altitude xx, speed yy and position zz, here's how to avoid me" on freely receivable radio.
So they wanted to kill some Ukrainian soldiers - unlawfully as they were not at war by the way - and they have managed to kill hundreds of Dutch civilians. And then they kept lying about it and accusing Ukraine of doing it. So no, it's not because they think evil is fun, it's because they are uncaring, cynical and incompetent people.
Ok, what proportional retaliation does the U.S. deserve for Iraq?
An unlimited defensive war from the government of Iraq, international condemnation, and possible military aid for the government of Iraq to fight against the US. I would support that. As well as dragging Bush and Blair in front of the ICC for it.
Look, I get that the world is not fair, and I don't say I think it's right that while Palestinian children are genocided by Israel, dickheads like Bibi, Bush, Kissinger, Putin and Dugin get to live a hatefully long and happy life. I am also not saying that there is a "good" side to the world and a "bad" side. There are plenty of bad people all over.
All I'm saying is that Russia is the imperialist invader in this instance, just as the US was in Iraq or Vietnam. To be honest, I see a ton of parallels with this war and Vietnam, with weapons used making large swathes of the country uninhabitable - agent orange and landmines - the massacres at My Lai and Bucha, even the aggressor supporting and subverting a small faction to give it legitimacy over the country's democratic majority.
I can only hope the outcome would be similar as well, with the aggressor turning tail and going home in shame.
And all I'm saying is that there are more than two sides to this, and just as the US is not on the right side of history just because Stalin, Russia is not there either just because Kissinger.
It's the top bureaucrats of Russia
Jesus Christ, you were wrong. If you can't acknowledge that reality, I'm not wasting any more time with you.
If Article 5 applies to responses from NATO countries bombing foreign soil, then any NATO country could bomb anyone they wanted, and if they fight back, expect the entirety of NATO to attack that country.
Which is how the US operates, but I doubt the rest of NATO wants to back Victor Orban if he decides to relive the heady days of 1940 and bomb Serbia or Erdowan feels like recreating the Ottoman Empire.