To be clear, this was bait for terminally online lemmy libs.
Not Hexbear anarchists, but here we are.
Good memes, bad memes, unite towards a united front.
Either you ridin' or we pass you, flyin' by sayin' fuck you
To be clear, this was bait for terminally online lemmy libs.
Not Hexbear anarchists, but here we are.
You have this out of context Joey Steel quote as your bio:
We believe that the Anarchists are real enemies of Marxism. Accordingly, we also hold that a real struggle must be waged against real enemies
I'm pretty sure the liberals aren't your target. They certainly weren't Stalin's, because he was trying to build a movement and knew they were useless.
Don't try to walk this post back, stick to your guns, you wanted to struggle with the anarchists. Bask in the struggle session.
I like the quote, and don't really see any real benefit with political unity with anarchists.
The liberals were the target with this post.
You sexually harassing people wasn't the struggle session I had in mind, but I guess that's anarchists.
my take is that foreign policy differences won't matter until we have built more than 0.00000000001% of communism
and frankly anarchists are way better at local level shit than we are
i say this as an active member of a marxist-leninist party for the last 15 years
having done extensive on the ground work, irl anarchists are nothing like internet anarchists in my experience
the worst you will get as an ML is a snide comment or a weird look, which if that bothers you, you are not suited to organizing
and frankly "supporting" china has no material impact whatsoever, and implies a very "posting is praxis" western marxist worldview
you know what, fuck it, i'm done being nice to you larpers
GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE AND DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR FUCKING LIFE YOU WORTHLESS FUCKING PRICK
shut the fuck up larper, you live in a suburb in wisconsin, no one fucking cares
you really suck at this don't you larper
go the fuck outside and do something with your life
You're inside on your computer too, aren't you?
What charity masquerading as "mutual aid" should I be taking part in?
it's 4am for me dipshit, you expect me to be organizing when everyone is asleep?
holy shit you fuckers are a complete joke
make a play at me being a furry next, that'll play well with the reactionaries you're deperate to tailism into joining our side
it's 4am for me dipshit, you expect me to be organizing when everyone is asleep.
What the fuck did you want me to do then? Here I am standing outside, like you told me to.
you're a yankoid aren't you? make do motherfucker
Wait, you're fucking British?
Why do you have the gall to comment on material conditions, or how I should be organizing a continent away?
Maybe take the fucking terf log out of your own eye first.
i'm literally trans you fucking shitbag
or do you not recognise the flag in my god damn avatar
i'm also poor as shit, but you don't care about that do you?
it's all fucking national essentialism to your kind
i'm literally trans you fucking shitbag
or do you not recognise the flag in my god damn avatar
Sorry, not as familiar with that flag. I didn't mean to offend in that way.
I don't think it's fair for you to critique organizing efforts in the U$ as scathingly as you have given the deficiencies in the UK movement. If there's a better way to phrase that, I'm happy to edit or change it.
i'm also poor as shit, but you don't care about that do you?
I'd very much like to point out that you're free with excuses for yourself, but basically spat on me earlier saying I should go outside.
Are you the only one with valid reasons?
it's all fucking national essentialism to your kind.
I can't tell China, or the UK, how to pursue their revolution, because I don't know the conditions there. You can't tell me, because you don't know.
edited 10-25-23, due to https://hexbear.net/post/913975 ( https://archive.ph/jw2nT )linking:
Context to see Woofwoof's comments and the full discussion, including comments removed on the LG link: https://hexbear.net/post/697637
Archive of post: https://web.archive.org/web/20231025203532/https://hexbear.net/post/697637
WoofWoof replied to my post, I didn't seek them out to argue against them.
If there's a better way to frame the argument that organizing in the UK sucks too, I'm all ears.
This post didn't go the way I wanted it to, I sort of regret it, and I'd like it to stay dead. I guess make a new post and tag me in it if you want to reply. Kristina's got a temp ban on Lemmygrad so I can't interact with her post.
I'm clearly not able to communicate like more neuroconforming people. Sorry. This is the only way I know how to communicate.
If there's an acceptable way to argue that we should be able to keep downvotes on LG, I'm also all ears.
I don't think there's a pattern in who I pick to argue against, I think this thread shows it, but I'll be more aware in the future.
I dunno I think dismissively quoting 19th century political philosophical divisions in response to someone pointing to the importance of real-world on the ground mass organizing is firmly in the realm of idealism.
The science of revolution requires a grounding in the conditions of the working class and an aptitude for organizing a mass base. Many anarchists are far ahead of many Western MLs in this respect, as being a Western ML is unfortunately often treated more like an identity or club rather than an activity or life dedication or science.
Supporting China in the form of creating anti-cold war coalitions can have a material impact. It can at least delay and disrupt the imperial machine while they figure out how to pass laws so that calling a Congressperson a loser now earns someone prison time, etc.
Also a great way to expose people to the police reaction that will occur when you organize anything in this vein of any importance. Gotta keep innoculating more and more people so that we don't get easily murdered when cool zones hit.
are you fucking high?
since when has the us imperial war machine gave the tiniest shit about what the people think?
and even if they did, the average american sees everyone outside of america as subhuman and worthy of scorn, you think they would oppose a war?
The imperial war machine is constantly lobbying for its interests and against sentiments that may disrupt its aims. It is virtually always successful on the national stage, but local organizing can and has massively disrupted supply chains and manufacturing centers. This is why a lot of environmentalism actions are now criminal, even treated as terrorism: they did and do actually force a response, and that sucks away resources from the top in a lose-lose material exchange but with the benefit of innoculating the public from the notion that things are going well, that those companies are on their side, etc. It also teaches your org members that there is no bottom to the depravity to which capital will respond to disruption. Gotta plan accordingly to ensure actions have informed consent, of course - and a clear-eyed goal.
Anyways, the war machine lobbies because they do actually perceive a need to "grease the wheels" to get things going. They don't throw money at think tanks and Senators and PR campaigns for nothing. And that can be undermined with several aforementioned benefits.
And no, I agree, most Americans are confused and easily led into fashy thinking and frothing for genocide. The actions I'm talking about don't have naive goals like, "we will convince everyone to oppose US imperialism on principle". Innoculation can be as simple as being tear gas seeping in your window while the cops beat protesters. The liberal inside may not join the protesters (yet), but they do see the lopsided reaction and a few gears start to turn.
These are the kinds of things we use to peel away libs person by person to build power. Especially younger people.
Smdh my dick head you'd think with all the fucking books the intellectual Marxists carry around they'd have the muscle to lob a brick once in a while. Put those arms to a better use in the present than jacking each other off about dreams of fighting anarchists in the future.
the muscle to lob a brick once in a while.
Propaganda of the deed was disproven by like 1910
Propaganda of the deez?
I get it, it feels cute to try and deflect with humor when you're wrong, but it's an old joke, and you're not in Hexbear.
You'd think MLs would recognize the need to build a mass base but Western self-proclaimed ML parties tend to be like 4 people that alienate everyone around them or are PatSoc adjacent, lol. Not all of them by any means. PSL and some others do a better job, but none are really doing the work of building a mass base. There's some kind of inescapable drive to do weird out-of-touch shit, lol. They're all getting dunked on by DSA libs in that arena, lol.
I also have a great time organizing with several (not all, of course) orgs of various anarchist tendencies.
I come here out of love as someone that identifies with the ML tradition and keeps running headfirst into trying to get Western commies to actually organize.
Although “left unity” is pure idealist crap
So's your mom. There is something intensely funny about people claiming to be MLs following ML teachings calling for ideological purity before an ML state is established. Like read the tenets of your own belief system, read lenin.
read lenin.
"Unity is a great thing and a great slogan. But what the workers’ cause needs is the unity of Marxists, not unity between Marxists, and opponents and distorters of Marxism.".
Or like, what Lenin did you have in mind
Hey that's a fun little quote, where did you get that. I wonder what "Distorters of Marxism" he was talking about? Could he be talking about "Liquidators", i.e. people who wanted to disband the social-democratic party of Russia in favor of joining with legal parties? Nooo, that'd mean you were quoting something dishonestly, and that just couldn't be.
I'm asking you to read "Left-communism: An infantile disorder"
Which I shall quote now
"All compromise with other parties . . . any policy of manoeuvring and compromise must be emphatically rejected,” the German Lefts write in the Frankfurt pamphlet.
It is surprising that, with such views, these Lefts do not emphatically condemn Bolshevism! After all, the German Lefts cannot but know that the entire history of Bolshevism, both before and after the October Revolution, is full of instances of changes of tack, conciliatory tactics and compromises with other parties, including bourgeois parties!
To carry on a war for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie, a war which is a hundred times more difficult, protracted and complex than the most stubborn of ordinary wars between states, and to renounce in advance any change of tack, or any utilisation of a conflict of interests (even if temporary) among one’s enemies, or any conciliation or compromise with possible allies (even if they are temporary, unstable, vacillating or conditional allies)—is that not ridiculous in the extreme? Is it not like making a difficult ascent of an unexplored and hitherto inaccessible mountain and refusing in advance ever to move in zigzags, ever to retrace one’s steps, or ever to abandon a course once selected, and to try others? And yet people so immature and inexperienced (if youth were the explanation, it would not be so bad; young people are preordained to talk such nonsense for a certain period) have met with support—whether direct or indirect, open or covert, whole or partial, it does not matter—from some members of the Communist Party of Holland.
After the first socialist revolution of the proletariat, and the overthrow of the bourgeoisie in some country, the proletariat of that country remains for a long time weaker than the bourgeoisie, simply because of the latter’s extensive international links, and also because of the spontaneous and continuous restoration and regeneration of capitalism and the bourgeoisie by the small commodity producers of the country which has overthrown the bourgeoisie. The more powerful enemy can be vanquished only by exerting the utmost effort, and by the most thorough, careful, attentive, skilful and obligatory use of any, even the smallest, rift between the enemies, any conflict of interests among the bourgeoisie of the various countries and among the various groups or types of bourgeoisie within the various countries, and also by taking advantage of any, even the smallest, opportunity of winning a mass ally, even though this ally is temporary, vacillating, unstable, unreliable and conditional. Those who do not understand this reveal a failure to understand even the smallest grain of Marxism, of modern scientific socialism in general. Those who have not proved in practice, over a fairly considerable period of time and in fairly varied political situations, their ability to apply this truth in practice have not yet learned to help the revolutionary class in its struggle to emancipate all toiling humanity from the exploiters. And this applies equally to the period before and after the proletariat has won political power.
Just so I understand correctly, Lenin is saying that communist parties need to join together to overthrow capitalism. Is that how you read it?
Can you help me understand why you think that extends to anarchists?
Not only are most anarchists who would even be interested in such an alliance anarcho-communists, i.e. communists, Lenin directly calls for allying with any "mass ally", even if this ally is "temporary, vacillating, unstable, unreliable and conditional"
And I agree with Lenin.
I don't understand temporary alliances for specific goals to be the same as "left unity".
That implies a unity of purpose and goal that doesn't exist.
I don't want the future Anarchists want, and they don't want mine.
ARE YOU CURRENTLY IN A PLACE IN WHICH YOU ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE BOURGEOIS INTERESTS? NO? THEN READ LENIN AGAIN YOU MOTHERFUCKER
ARE YOU CURRENTLY IN A PLACE IN WHICH YOU ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE BOURGEOIS INTERESTS? NO? THEN READ LENIN AGAIN YOU MOTHERFUCKER.
Is it a thing in Hexbear to just like, be meaner when you can't get your point across?
Maybe having downvotes would make y'all more pleasant to interact with.
Is it a thing on lemmygrad to pretend to read Lenin and then say the total opposite of what was meant? Is it common practise to selectively quote things out of context and then try to contort ML into blanquism?
You're a dishonest actor, there is no need to be nice to you
We're both clear that Lenin says to work with people.
I'm trying to communicate that "left unity" implies a unity of movement beyond temporary alliance.
If we're agreed that lenin is recommending temporary alliances, then it feels like we should be agreed that "left unity" (a permanent unity of purpose) isn't really a thing.
Is there anything I've missed in this summation?
The popular fronts established by the soviet union lasted for 50 fucking years. You're just being pedantic and useless on purpose.
And you're just being mean because you don't want to concede the point.
Can we agree that "left unity" (as a permanent unity of purpose) isn't a real thing?
Or are you just going to duck the question and yell at me again?
And you're just being mean because you don't want to concede the point.
No, I'm being mean because you're being intellectually dishonest and wasting everybody's time to make a pedantic, useless, and somehow still wrong, point.
Unless you want to talk about anything other than your pointless need to redefine "Left unity" into a thing it isn't (and then failing to argue against that), we're done. You pointless person.
So you've ducked the question to insult me.
It's really unpleasant to interact with y'all about anything serious.