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Israel Accused of Running “Torture Camps” as Video Emerges of Soldiers Raping Palestinian Prisoner
(www.democracynow.org)
Anyone else nazi this ending well?
this post was submitted on 08 Aug 2024
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Anyone who is against RAPE is ANTISEMITIC!
Meanwhile, we've got "stop being antisemitic" trolls casting doubt among the uninformed.
Not only that. There are whole countries participating in that disgusting shit. UK and US stayed absent from the Nagasaki memorial event because Japan had the good sense of not inviting an apartheid dictatorship.
Japan is an apartheid themselves lmfao.
How so?
Yeah I don't think posting an article of how Abe got slammed for the suggestion is the smoking gun evidence you think it is. Japan's coming to terms with its past being -- well let's be blunt an call it an embarrassment -- is tangential.
Seriously I'm a bit confused. You're accusing Japan of Apartheid and what you're coming up are those two things, and not the de facto complete absence of a civic, as opposed to ethnic/cultural, national identity?
Coming to terms with it's past? They actively oppress their largest minority population. On top of all the shit in Source 2? Alright dude lol just downvote and move along.
They call them Zainichi Koreans in Japan. Dirty Koreans who can't get citizenship but slave away for the countries benefit. Something like that anyways.
You can get Japanese citizenship after five years of residency, somewhat surprisingly there's not even a language test. And many many Zainichi did and do.
If that is Apartheid then I don't want to know what you have to say about Estonia.
And many many Zainichi did and do.
Where's the source. I've got one that says the opposite.
Current Discriminatory Practices
Nonetheless, despite significant progress, discriminatory practices persist in Japanese society. Naturalization remains the primary means of acquiring full citizenship rights, but the process is complex and discourages many. Nowadays, most Zainichi Koreans are descendants of the forced labourers in the 1920s, so they were born and raised in Japan and speak only Japanese, but they are not eligible for citizenship unless one of their parents is Japanese. Furthermore, as it is against the law in Japan to have two nationalities, for Zainichi Koreans to naturalize would require them to renounce their Korean identity entirely. As Chung put it, “Japanese nationality is closely associated with ethnocultural identity, naturalization applicants must not only renounce their allegiance to their country of origin but must also demonstrate evidence of cultural assimilation”. Moreover, if their ethnic roots were revealed, they would still be seen as outsiders in Japanese society, therefore naturalizing would not even address the underlying causes of prejudice.
Even though there is no fee to pay for naturalization, applicants frequently have to pay hefty attorney costs to prepare the numerous documents needed to authenticate their family histories.
Estonia
Apartheid too? I will say this, doubt you'll see anyone who gives a single fuck.
Where’s the source.
Like here. About 6000 naturalisations per year.
Are there issues? Yes. Is it Apartheid? If you think it is, then you are trivialising the shit out of what South Africa has done. What Israel is doing.
Apartheid too? I will say this, doubt you’ll see anyone who gives a single fuck.
The Soviet Union settled plenty of people in Estonia when they occupied it, those people didn't get Estonian citizenship once Estonia got its independence, they got permanent residencies instead. A metric fuckton naturalised in the year since then, which involved learning Estonian.
Bit of a difference because Estonia was the victim of colonialism, not the aggressor, they would've been perfectly within their right to just expel everyone, but the associated identity vs. nationality stuff very much applies.
... trivialising the shit out of
From 1937–1945, the Japanese military regime may have killed nearly 6 million people, including around half a million Koreans. This estimate includes Koreans who were conscripted into the Japanese army, where over 22,000 were killed.
That's a lot of things, bad things, but it's not Apartheid. Words have meaning. It's also not current.
It's also not current.
Here the conclusion of your own source.
Regardless, discrimination still affects their daily lives both visibly and invisibly.
Definition of apartheid:
system of legalized racial segregation that deprives one racial group of political and civil rights.
I've provided sources that prove it. Political rights deprived as well as civil. Laws enabling it.
Political rights deprived as well as civil.
They can, and do, become citizens. The procedure is the same as for everyone else. Are you telling me that black people in South Africa were able to do that.
Naturalization remains the primary means of acquiring full citizenship rights, but the process is complex and discourages many. Nowadays, most Zainichi Koreans are descendants of the forced labourers in the 1920s, so they were born and raised in Japan and speak only Japanese, but they are not eligible for citizenship unless one of their parents is Japanese. Furthermore, as it is against the law in Japan to have two nationalities,
Go on how they do and can become citizens. I don't know how many braincells I've lost talking to you. It's easier for a Palestinian to get citizenship in Israel than it is for a zainichi Korean. They can't even be Korean anymore to get citizenship. Dude what the fuck are you talking about here.
It’s easier for a Palestinian to get citizenship in Israel
Hell no. Should Zainichi have an easier path to citizenship? I do think so, here in Germany we have an accelerated procedure for people who were born and went to school here, no matter the parentage. Is it any more involved to get Japanese citizenship as a Zainichi than as a German? Nope.
Not allowing dual citizenship isn't anything out of the ordinary either, btw.
People born in Germany are given citizenship. Zainichi Koreans are not in Japan. There is no accelerated procedure for zainichi Koreans who went to school. In fact japanese law even makes it harder for Korean schoolchildren.
One of the continuing contentious issues for Koreans in Japan is education. The Japanese government in 2003 made graduates from most international schools and foreign schools – as well as Japanese schools – eligible for the university entrance examination. This has not been extended to most Korean schools (with the exception of a small number of Mindan-run schools), meaning that Korean students from these schools remain seriously disadvantaged. There also exists other forms of continuing discrimination against Korean schools, with donations to foreign schools being tax-exempt, but not those to Korean schools. Since most Korean schools are thus still not recognized as regular schools, children attending these schools will also risk discrimination in employment. The government of Japan also excludes Korean schools from the high school tuition-waiver programme, which was introduced by the government in April 2010, although the programme covered foreign schools authorized as miscellaneous schools. Many local governments have cancelled financial support for Korean schools as well.
People born in Germany are given citizenship.
Not in general, no.
If your argument was "Japan should adopt German-style laws and give citizenship to children of permanent residents" then I'd say yes, that's a good idea. Your argument, however, is "Japan has Apartheid, Zainichi can't use the same beaches as Japanese, are forced to live in segregated areas, have a different set of laws applied to them". Because that is what Apartheid means. You're trivialising the concept with your accusation.
My argument is nobody cares about apartheid or even potential apartheid countries Japan is not the only one. They act like there is no problem it's all normal. You don't see a single person here going hey yeah Japan should chill out everyone is just going "no it's not".
What are you talking about "in general, no."
It is how it works since the year 2000. If you are born there yes, you can get citizenship, given your parent live there for 8 years.
There are generations of zainichi who have not got citizenship.
I've shown they have different sets of laws that apply to them. They are prohibited from working various jobs.
They act like there is no problem it’s all normal.
I mentioned several things Japan should change. How is that "acting like there's no problem"?
What I'm saying it's not Apartheid. Because it isn't. Apartheid is a specific thing with a specific definition.
What are you talking about “in general, no.”
I mean "in general, no". If a pregnant couple travels to the US on a tourist visa and gives birth there, the child will be a US citizen. That's not the case in Germany or for that matter most of the rest of the world. Korea itself doesn't have Ius soli.
It is how it works since the year 2000. If you are born there yes, you can get citizenship, given your parent live there for 8 years.
Living here doesn't suffice, you need permanent residency -- though if you're here for that long, that should generally be the case. And it's not "you can become a citizen" but "you are a citizen". If you don't grow up in Germany with that kind of Ius soli citizenship you'll have to choose with 21 whether you keep your foreign or German citizenship.
That kind of regime is btw what I proposed Japan introduce in my previous comment. You might want to start reading what I write.
There are generations of zainichi who have not got citizenship.
And Japan should make the procedure easier for them. I have said that already. But that doesn't mean that they're treated any differently from any other non-citizen. They in fact do enjoy some rights not afforded to other permanent residents. So, yes, those "different laws" exist, but they're in the favour of Zainichis.
Go and have a look at actual Apartheid regimes. The degree of discrimination, the complete impossibility of leaving second-class citizen status, the lot of it. Noone is going to listen to your demands for better citizenship laws if you keep on pretending Zainichis can't shop in the same 7/11s that the rest of Japan shops in.
The degree of discrimination, the complete impossibility of leaving second-class citizen status
20% of the Israeli citizens are Palestine descent. 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel.
So, yes, those "different laws" exist, but they're in the favour of Zainichis.
Yeah, their laws I pointed out to you on how schools operate realllly favour zainichi Koreans. /s Incase you need it
20% of the Israeli citizens are Palestine descent. 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel.
What about the occupied territories? They're applying martial law there, and people have no prospect of citizenship. Then there's plenty of Palestinans living in Israel who don't have Israeli citizenship, or realistic prospect of citizens, e.g. in Jerusalem.
You have no idea how bad it is in Israel if you think it's in any way comparable to Japan.
Yeah, their laws I pointed out to you on how schools operate realllly favour zainichi Koreans. /s Incase you need it
I'm sorry are you saying that Japan should introduce Korean native-level lessons in their state school curriculum or what's your actual issue here. What would you change. I've yet to see any actual policy proposal from you: No solutions, just "Japan bad". Why would Zainichi who don't speak Korean want those types of schools.
You admitted they have several things to change after 2 days of arguing with you about it. Lol.
Point me at a state and I'll find several things that they should change. Do you e.g. really want to get me started on Korea with their rampant gerontocracy and misogyny.
Crucially, though, and this should make you think, none of what I said Japan should change actually came from an argument you made.
Africans themselves have criticized Japan for apartheid.
Foreign Minister Kimura's Visit to Africa, Japan, which had never colonized the African continent, was sometimes criticized by Africans for its relations with apartheid and other issues.
Miss me with whatever antisemitic you are ignorantly and bigantly spreading.
Have you actually read the corresponding section in Chapter 1. Quote:
Kimura said he decided to visit Africa because “the African continent is still seen in the same way as the colonial period ... As a first step, Japan should show the right attitude from an international moral standpoint.” But he also states that another aim of the visit was to soften the criticism of Japan from other African countries for actively trading with South Africa, a racist country at the time.
Have you any idea how many countries traded with South Africa at that time? Not exactly the same thing but here's a map of SA's diplomatic ties 1974. Plenty of African states, say Madagascar or the Congo, were happy to take South African money. What does anything of that have to do with the status of Zainichi a whole 50 years later?
Yes I read it all. It shows a pattern for Japan which openly embraces apartheid up to recent times. They support that crap. Just like the congo did. In fact the congo like Japan was also an apartheid during those relations.
Circling all the way back to the beginning: If they currently support that crap, why did Abe get slammed for proposing Apartheid?
It really does seem like you have made up your mind about the Japanese and are trying very hard to scrape together whimsy excuses for your bigotry.
...and seriously. Congo. As in back then still named Zaire. Did I miss something was Mobutu white or something. Are you just making shit up.
Are you just making shit up.
I'm not making anything up. I haven't made a single thing up. You just don't give a single shit.
Quote:
The Japanese government has overtly and covertly tried to distance itself from Sono
Also, again, Abe:
One possible reason the Japanese mainstream media is reluctant to criticize Sono and the Sankei newspaper is due to the fact that Prime Minister Abe makes it a habit to regularly wine and dine the top executives of Japan’s media groups, often at the same time—usually before major political announcements or decisions—creating a cozy relationship that makes criticizing him or those close to him particularly awkward or difficult in Japanese culture.
Politics in Japan are strange, they're a proper democracy but also de facto a one-party state. Abe is dead, in more than one way.
And I mean -- this is what you have? Random people say stuff and you elevate it to state policy and social sentiment? Then, I guess, all Canadians want first nation people in boarding schools, all Germans want to ethnically cleanse the country of immigrant blood, all French want to re-colonise Algeria, all Koreans want state-mandated girlfriends, the list is fucking endless.
This is not random people, that was a top advisors of the country.
One possible reason the Japanese mainstream media is reluctant to criticize...
However you justify it and make jokes. Don't forget they also did kill 600k Koreans then pretty much enslave them for cheap labor. Waaaay more than Israel killed Hamas-Palestinians and civilian casualties.
Several well-publicized examples of hate speech targeting these Korean ethnic schools have been recorded. In December 2009, January 2010, and March 2010, anti-Korean activists staged three demonstrations chanting abusive slogans, such as “children of spies,” via loudspeakers against a Korean primary school in Kyoto. They claimed that the school illegally used a nearby park as a playground for more than fifty years. The school did in fact use the park, but with permission from Kyoto City and the local residents’ association. After the rallies, the ultra-rightists uploaded videos of the demonstrations online. Since the demonstrations and the social media posting of the incidents severely traumatized the students, teachers, and parents, the school filed a lawsuit in 2010. The lower court ruled in its favor.
Random people say stuff and you elevate it to state policy and social sentiment?
Such a nice social sentiment /s
the school filed a lawsuit in 2010. The lower court ruled in its favor.
Are you reading what you're quoting? Why, if Japan is an Apartheid state, are courts siding with the Zainichi?
Don’t forget they also did kill 600k Koreans then pretty much enslave them for cheap labor. Waaaay more than Israel killed Hamas-Palestinians and civilian casualties.
First off: History, or is Japan currently killing Koreans? Secondly, there were about 30m Korans in 1950 (North and South), but only 1.4m Palestinians. More than half of which were driven out of the country, by threat of settler violence, during the Nakhba.
Then, WTF is "Hamas-Palestinians" supposed to mean. I'm asking because you seem to be busy trivialising Israeli crimes while simultaneously exhibiting a clear pattern of group-focussed enmity, are you a Kahanite?
You were talking about Japan's social sentiment of the zainichi. So I pointed to the year long hate speech protests they conducted toward school children
More than half of which were driven out of the country, by threat of settler violence, during the Nakhba.
It is completely false. They left because their Arab allies warned them to leave as they were going to invade Israel. Which they did.
What really happened is the first Jewish immigrants(just 100 people in 1890 known as Rishon LeZion) faced harsh conditions. Trouble farming their barren land, starving and trouble getting water to their settlement. All while starving and trying to live the Arab marauders would pillaged their settlement. There was no displacement or made up nakhba.
That sentiment has always been the same to " Itbach al-Yahud " even nearly 100 years later with Hamas.
Then, WTF is "Hamas-Palestinians"
Damn, you really are dumber than I thought. Looool.
So I pointed to the year long hate speech protests they conducted toward school children
Who is "they"? You might want to go back and read that article.
As to the rest... yeah even if you don't identify as Kahanite you're still spouting the same myths. You're the kind of guy at those kind of hate speech protests, desperately trying to find a place in the world that you can pretend is doing worse, so you can absolve yourself of your own bigotry. Pointing fingers, the favourite sport of the self-righteous. Remember: If you point your finger at someone else, three are pointing back at you. Try it, it's really true.
Who is "they"? You might want to go back and read that article.
...? The Japanese anti Korea public? The Japanese public who let the protests continue for a whole year?
you're still spouting the same myths.
What myths? For someone who has carried on for 3 days it's weird you stop here.
There is literally nothing you have said to the treatment of the first settlers in 1890. They didn't displace anyone. It was just 100 people settling surrounded by what? 100K people? And that's the way they were treated? Left to starve and their village pillaged? Okay buddy. You say Rishon LeZion is a myth? That they had to go to France just to get a well made because those jew haters couldn't help them is a myth?
The Japanese public who let the protests continue for a whole year?
They are Uyoku dantai. Expanding that to the sole population is like calling all Israelis Kahanites, all white Americans KKK while calling all black Americans Nation of Islam, etc.
You say Rishon LeZion is a myth?
You were talking about 1920. That's Battle of Tel Hai and the Nebi Musa riots.
But there was much more than the Arab misinterpretation of our Western-minded moderation
Oh, Jerusalem Post. I suppose Igrun is supposed to be "moderate", eh. I suppose the League of Nations mandate essentially telling Arabs "yep we're going to turn this into a Jewish majority country you don't get a say and we'll back it up with British guns" was moderate. It indeed then was unsarcastically moderate of the Brits to limit Jewish immigration as things became hot -- to which the likes of Igrun responded with terror attacks not just on Arabs, but also the Brits, because I mean how dare they care about public order. Everything is very moderate here. All were hippies who just wanted to live in peace, yes. Nothing to see here, the State of Israel had a virgin birth, wrapped in innocence.
Expanding that to the sole population is like calling all Israelis Kahanites, ...
You did just call me that. I don't know what it means.
You were talking about 1920. That's Battle of Tel Hai and the Nebi Musa riots.
1920 is 30 years after the first settlement. I believe the first settlement were hippies who wanted to live in peace. A lot of them had just moved there from a crazy situation in Russia. Why is it a crazy notion they want to live in peace? You don't explain why they were attacked and pillaged and I can't find that. Other than Arab marauders have always looted and pillaged for hundreds of years?
That is maybe part of the context to all those moderate actions Britain took.
You called me a kahanite well what about you? Left wing anti Semite?
You did just call me that. I don’t know what it means.
And yet you comment on Israel. LMFAO. I already had you half-pegged as an Israeli but that definitely disqualifies you, you know nothing about Israel.
A lot of them had just moved there from a crazy situation in Russia. Why is it a crazy notion they want to live in peace?
Nothing, whatsoever. Where it becomes problematic is turning it into a colonial project. And no, early Zionists were not at all shy about calling what they were doing colonialism.
1920 is 30 years after the first settlement.
1920 is what the article you linked starts off with. It has pretty much nothing to do with Rischon LeZion.
You don’t explain why they were attacked and pillaged and I can’t find that. Other than Arab marauders have always looted and pillaged for hundreds of years?
Who got pillaged, when? And, yes, shit happens. The right course of action would've been to round up the perpetrators and put them before court. What the Idrun did, instead, was to bomb police stations and market places.
As to your insinuations of antisemitism: I'm German with Jewish roots. My grandfather barely survived the race laws. My aunt lives in Israel. I could grab my passport, fly to Israel, and get citizenship on arrival. My political stance regarding the whole thing can be best summed up as vaguely Labour-Zionist. You know, the kind of Israelis who get beaten up by Israeli police right now for protesting the genocide. The kind of people more concerned with pudding prices than killing Arabs.
There's two things to understand if you ever want to see an end to the bloodshed in that area:
- There can be no Israeli security without Palestinian freedom
- There can be no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
Fascists on both sides are happy to make sure neither of the two ever happens. They mutually depend on each other.
I already had you half-pegged as an Israeli but that definitely disqualifies you, you know nothing about Israel.
That contradicts itself. How can you have me half pegged as an Israeli if I know nothing. I would have to know a decent amount of something.
And no, early Zionists were not at all shy about calling what they were doing colonialism.
Ohh no they setup a colony where persecuted Jews across Europe could escape to. You might wonder if the Jews moving to that area may have been a good thing? With the Jews also brought lots of Arab immigrants as well. And just for some numbers in 1900 there were around 600,000 Arabs in Israel and 90 thousand Jews.
1920 is what the article you linked starts off with. It has pretty much nothing to do with Rischon LeZion
Yes it does. It shows how things escalated over the 30 years after the settlement of Rishon LeZion and to what degree the Palestine Arabs escalated it.
Who got pillaged, when? And, yes, shit happens. The right course of action would've been to round up the perpetrators and put them before court. What the Idrun did, instead, was to bomb police stations and market places.
Rishon LeZion. 1983 while they were starving with no water well trying to transport water on camelback to farm the land. How can they round up the perpetrators? I'm assuming the perpetrators hide behind some guarded fortress. You think a starving people is going to accomplish that?
Then back to the Jerusalem Post article the relevant part is here: you even pointed to it yourself.
But there was much more than the Arab misinterpretation of our Western-minded moderation and inclination to delude ourselves that if we overlook sporadic barrages from Gaza, its homicidal ardor will somehow dissipate.
Here are some announcements and warnings the Irgun gave to Palestine-Arabs. Why are you so apologetic for those murderers?
The National Military Organization has warned you, if the murderous attacks on Jewish civilians shall continue, its soldiers will penetrate your centers of activity and plague you. You have not heeded the warning. You continued to harm our brothers and murder them in wild cruelty. Therefore soldiers of the National Military Organization will go on the attack, as we have warned you.
... However even in these frenzied times, when Arab and Jewish blood is spilled at the British enslaver, we hereby call upon you ... to stop the attacks and create peace between us. We do not want a war with you. We are certain that neither do you want a war with us...[57]
That contradicts itself. How can you have me half pegged as an Israeli if I know nothing. I would have to know a decent amount of something.
You can regurgitate right-wing Israeli propaganda myths quite well, that's not common outside of Israel. But from an Israeli the reaction to Kahanites being mentioned would have been either a) "Hell yeah sure let's kill all Arabs" or b) "No Kahanites are terrible you see my position is different because I want Arabs dead not because I hate them but because I'm afraid of them" or c) "fuck yeah they're our version of Hamas keeping the bullshit conflict going".
You might wonder if the Jews moving to that area may have been a good thing?
You mean whether colonialism is a good thing? No. No, it isn't.
Rishon LeZion. 1983
...erm, what? If you meant 1893, well, first off it's a bad idea to start off an agricultural settlement without specialists in agriculture or irrigation, secondly, I was speaking generally. It would've first been British responsibility to round up instigators, which they couldn't really do because Zionists, instead of working with the British, bombed them instead, nowadays it's Israeli responsibility and we all know how Apartheid courts work: Throw a stone at a tank, not even scratching the paint, get sentenced to 15 years in prison. As a juvenile, mind you.
You think a starving people is going to accomplish that?
You're again talking about Rishon LeZion's startup trouble, I presume. How is the responsibility of random Johnny Arab to go out of their way to help some random Jews wanting to settle in the middle of nowhere without proper preparation. Why would they owe the settlers that.
Here are some announcements and warnings the Irgun gave to Palestine-Arabs. Why are you so apologetic for those murderers?
Oh. Is that it? "We warned them we would be bombing the shit out of marketplaces and they didn't cease to do perfectly normal and peaceful things like visiting the market to buy and sell food so we had no choice but to terrorise them". That is murder apologia if I've ever seen it.
to stop the attacks and create peace between us. We do not want a war with you. We are certain that neither do you want a war with us
And yet the terror continued.
Meanwhile their politicians are freeing these rapists, and discussing in the Knesset (basically their parliament) if rape is an appropriate punishment. Their TV channels are discussing the same thing publicly, and bringing IDF soldiers on the shows to defend raping prisoners. I don't understand how a society can become so disgustingly genocidal. Nazi shit.
They will of course find it not to be rape as according to Israeli law, only a citizen is capable of being raped. Captured Palestinians are not citizens.
And it is ridiculous how many people on social media somehow think this makes everything okay.