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I have normally used "they, their and them" when referring to a singular person for about twenty years because I thought that "he/she" and "his/hers" looked ridiculous in emails.
For example; "Next time the engineer feels like he/she needs to overhaul the code..." versus "Next time the engineer feels like they need to overhaul the code...". Clean and simple.
Example of current use:
Bob - "Hey Jo, Frank thinks we should tweak widget X."
Me - "Yeah well, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about."
I don't think that sounds weird.
Singular they sometimes works and sometimes it sounds odd. It usually sounds off when used by itself without following something explicitly singular.
"The customer forgot their wallet. Can you bring it to them?" sounds correct but if you just do
"They forgot to pay their bill" it sounds like you're referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Edit: Changed to a better example.
“They left their wallet on the table” it sounds like you’re referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Does it? If multiple people left multiple wallets on the table, it would be, "They left their wallets on the table." Multiple people can't really leave a single wallet behind. Or at least that would be very unusual and unintuitive.
True. I'll change it to a (hopefully) better example.
“A customer forgot to pay their bill” sounds totally normal to me though, you just need a reference before throwing a pronoun out there, if the context doesn’t clear up the number of people referred to.
"They forgot to pay their bill" it sounds like you're referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
This sounds normal to me, how else would you word it?
Lots of people talk past each other on this. Singular they to refer to a known single person is an invention of the last few years and is the thing that a lot of people are up in arms about. It gets confused with the centuries-old usage of using it to refer to an unknown or undetermined person. Your first example is in line with the latter, and your second example is the new usage. TBH I'd be confused by your second example. Is Frank part of some larger group that doesn't know what they're talking about? Or is it only Frank that doesn't know what he's talking about?
No, it's been used for at least 400 years.
It's actually even older than that though. It's over 600 years.
https://nyulocal.com/shakespeare-used-the-singular-they-and-so-should-you-6452240ca9e0
Your confusion here is exactly what I'm trying to clear up. We know the gender of the person in the Shakespeare quote you linked to ("man"), but nothing else. It's a placeholder term that doesn't refer to a specific, known individual. Shakespeare never said anything like "Here's Frank, they're a cool guy", that would be considered ungrammatical until a few years ago.
It's not a thing of the last few years I've been using it for at least a decade.
A few years is a loose term, but it was certainly not in use by Shakespeare, unlike what people try to claim.
I honestly have never understood why people take the effort to write he/she instead of singular they? Like it's 2 words instead of 1, why bother? Even in academic articles which typically have word count limits lol
Frank is such an idiot. Why did we ever let them onto this team?
I just don't get it, even before being aware of pronouns and such I used singular they all the time, e.g. "That's what they did" (referring to one person) or "They're thinking that aren't they?"
Welcome to outrage politics. People decide to bring a common language feature back or into the mainstream and so the outrage gang has to get outraged
It's because there isn't actually confusion about this. This is transphobes making up something to be angry and confused about in order to rope in the ignorant to harass trans people. It's not acceptable to say "trans people are bad, we should ostracize them" currently. So transphobes find something that could be confusing (nonbinary people using they/them) and convince ignorant people (people who don't know much about trans people and/or have no opinion) that it's confusing and wrong and people should "correct" them. Then you get ignorant people saying things like "they isn't singular" or "I can't get used to they/them and don't like using it." This creates a continuous debate on if trans people deserve to self-identify and generates constant micro-aggressions (or just full aggressions) against their entire community.
It's really just a way for transphobes to create a hostile environment for trans people over literally nothing.
Yeah, but you're using it to mean "I don't know which pronoun to use." This is a different meaning than what's being describes here.
What's being described here is a person who decided that they don't want to be referred to as he or she, and has chosen to make themselves plural instead of using the singular nongendered pronoun already present in English.
Since that is a grammatical error, and this is the internet, I am obligated to ridicule this person, regardless of how well their meaning is conveyed.
/s, by the way.
"instead of using the singular nongendered pronoun already present in English."
Lmao. That shoulda given away the /s right there.
But uh, I think the pronoun you're talking about there is "they." 😜
Actually, I was referring to 'it.'
People don't like using it for people, because it's traditionally only really used for objects ("It's a chair!" ) or creatures where the gender isn't identifiable or doesn't matter ("It's a bear!") , but that's the exact use case here.
A nonbinary person is a creature whose gender is either not identifiable or doesn't matter.
People just decided that it meant nonbinary people were objects, when in reality we use it for objects because they were the only truly nonbinary concepts we had.
What's funny about those "grammar purist" people is singular "they" has been accepted common use in English for centuries, even older than singular "you". For some reason society got it in our collective heads in the fairly recent past that it was improper grammar, though, and that's what teachers often teach. I'm still not over my 5th grade teacher marking me down a point on an essay because I used singular "they". You're still wrong, Mrs. B.
Like many things, the damage was done by the British. Specifically one Bishop Robert Lowth. In 1762, he wrote a book of prescriptivist grammar rules starting with the premise that Latin is a perfect language, and any construction in English that doesn't match Latin is a flaw. This is where those nonsense rules like "never end a sentence with a preposition" and "never split infinitives" come from, as well as the claim that the singular they (in common use at the time) should be phased out in favor of the generic he, because that's what Latin does. The damage this one book did to the English language still has not been fully repaired.
Bring back thy/thine
You're confusing two different usages. Singular they to refer to an unknown or undetermined person has centuries-old usage, yes. Using it to refer to a known single person is an invention of the last few years.
So, to explain the German „sie/Sie“, it can be used as one of the following:
formal version of both singular and plural you: used whenever you have or want to maintain a distance from someone, or with persons who demand respect/authority. Generally speaking, whenever you would say Mr/Mrs/Ms it’s „Sie“, if you’re on first name terms it’s „Du“. Fun fact: addressing an LEO, judge, etc. informally („Du“) is considered an insult, insulting someone is a misdemeanour (not kidding) in Germany, and you will usually be fined on the spot for doing so.
Used to reference a woman/girl who has been mentioned before: What about Sally, is she coming today?
Same as above but for inanimate objects or animals that are gendered female: Have you seen my camera, I have misplaced her. Look at the cat, she’s so cute. (In this case it’s a cat of either female or unknown gender, if you were talking about a male cat specifically, you’d use the male version of „cat“…)
Same as above, but for all groups of people, animals, objects, regardless of gender, like plural they: Look at the guys/nuns/politicians/cats/helicopters, they’re drunk as fuck!
Great language, isn’t it.
Fun fact correction: if you happen to be Dieter Bohlen you are legally allowed to informally address everyone, including cops, and won't be fined.
Yeah, that's just the modern way of talking.
The only "issue" with singular they, and really its just more a clarification hiccup, is when you have a group that includes a person using they/them pronouns, it's a little clunky specifying you mean the individual rather than the full group and vice versa.
Yeah, but that's also an issue with "you". I'd say make a new pronoun but that's a whole other set of pains (e.g. I don't like xe/xem because it looks bad, doesn't fit with standard english. ze/zem is better or even something like ke or ge).
Hell, I'd be all for moving to an official constructed language for international communication but that's a whole other other set of problems (who makes it, what should it be based on and how do we make it fair, how to get people to use it).
Basically there's no good solution to language problems because prescriptivism doesn't work and all languages suck in some ways.
They is not just used to refer to singular people when they don't use he/she pronouns. It's literally been used as singular for hundreds of years.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html
As somebody whose primary language is Dutch, the lack of an explicit plural "you" is one of the worst things.
If I'm talking to somebody, I can't nicely refer to a group they are part of, because "you" means they themself specifically, "y'all" makes me feel like engineer TF2, and "you people" sounds condescending.
Now we need one of those memes with an armored-up titan defending teensy singular "they". The titan is labeled "Shakespeare".
What even is "singular they"?? First time hearing of this. Is it some pseudo gender thing promoted by the lgbtqia+ communities?
It's using they to refer to a single person. Some people think it's only supposed to be used for a group, but that's completely wrong. It's been used to refer to singular people since at least Shakespeare, if not longer. For example: "if some_one_ tells you they is singular, they are mindlessly consuming right wing media and not considering if it's actually correct."
This misses an important distinction that singular they was never used to refer to a known, specific individual until recently, and was certainly never used by Shakespeare that way.
... you've not heard of singular they, a pronoun used in english by Shakespear himself, that existed before singular you?
"Oh, somebody forgot their jacket" has existed since forever.
It's just a generic he or she, I've seen it used for years and never thought it's related to any gender identity issues. Also they is easier to type than he/she. It's similar to how vous can be used for plural or singular. Although maybe it's not a thing in places that don't also speak French.
Isn't "You" always singular? The words it's accompanied by make the overall statement plural. Like "you guys" or "you all". My brain might be slow this morning, but I can't think of any instance where it's plural without an accompanying word.
You used to be just second person plural, thou was second person singular. At some point, thou fell out of favour and we started using just you
Alright, I can think of a few instances given that context. Funny how it's original usage is now relatively uncommon.
You can see it's still grammatically plural even when used as a singular with the other words that go around it too. "You are" instead of the singular "is".
It can even make singular things kinda behave like they're plurals. Like "The Lemmy user is posting comments" vs. "you, the Lemmy user are posting comments"
Back in the day it was "thou art posting comments" (singular) and "ye are posting comments"(plural). With "ye" becoming "you" over time. Although they also had more funky letters like ȝ and þ and stuff.
Nope, "you" can be 2nd person plural on its own. You can refer to a group of people as just "you"
For example, imagine a security guard saying to a group of shoppers "everybody listen up, you need to leave the store". You might use "you all" but it's not grammatically necessary, it just adds specificity.
thankfully Chinese has always had a singular they, "他."
for your convenience:
by the way, 他 used to be he, she, or sing. they. the usage of 她 as she and 妳 as you (for females) is relatively recent. even now, you could replace all the ones with a "女" on its left with its "亻" counterpart and no one will say a thing. they are also pronounced identically.