this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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For a long time, I thought of the blockchain as almost synonymous with cryptocurrencies, so as I saw stuff like "Odyssey" and "lbry" appearing and being "based on the blockchain", my first thought was that it was another crypto scam. Then, I just got reminded of it and started looking more into it, and it just seemed like regular torrenting. For example, what's the big innovation separating Odyssey from Peertube, which is also decentralized and also uses P2P? And what part of it does the blockchain really play, that couldn't be done with regular P2P? More generally, and looking at the futur, does the blockchain offer new possibilities that the fediverse or pre-existing protocols don't have?

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The "blockchain" I use on a daily basis is git, where the sha of the previous commit affects the next.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Given that git was invented before the word "blockchain" started being used, shouldn't we call blockchain applications "git-like" rather than retroactively calling Git a blockchain?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Merkel Trees are fine, and are how things like "Git" keep track of different files (and how distributed hash tables and file-sharing often work).

Merkel Trees are trees-of-hashes, which the cryptocoin world wants us to believe go by the new name of 'Blockchain', but people familiar with comp. sci history know that they're just flailing about making shit up.

Blockchain is an application of Merkel Trees. Merkel Trees have lots of good uses, but Blockchain doesn't seem to have much use after 10+ years of experimentation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean look at big corpo/government servers. They're running an OS from 1980 and software that hasn't been updated since 1960's.

We'll get there. Eventually. Maybe.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My Android phone's marketplace, Google Play, is literally newer than Bitcoin and I have government services + banking applications on it.

I think you're blind to how slow and inconsequential cryptocoin's entire world is at innovation. They've wasted 15 years. Literally wasted, the world has changed and they haven't noticed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yo!

You seems to know what you're talking about, have you heard of Juliana trees? Like trees based only on the keys, so searching for a key takes len(key) time.

Bet there is an other name for it but I so remember like that and no web search says anything about it so I'm trying my luck here :-)

Same for robin hood hash trees :-D

Cheers

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

This sounds similar to a trie - maybe that’s what you were thinking of?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

ETH has DNS. I would think the fediverse would like to see adoption of DNS that governments and big companies can't mess with or take over with lots of cash.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As fast as money talks, you'll be losing.

IMO. We should make global random networks and base our connections on top of them instead of clinging onto the hope of niceties because someone have the site google.com for example.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

ETH staking is looking like its literally illegal in the USA, you know that right?

Coinbase Earn is quite possibly trading in unsecured, unregulated securities and is being sued over it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

So Google, Amazon, Apple, and many other large companies in the IoT space are using a blockchain as a federated data store: https://github.com/zigbee-alliance/distributed-compliance-ledger

It stores the data needed for Matter [ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) ] device attestation.

I think its an interesting use case on how entities that don't particularly trust each other can operate a federated system. Accounts are linked to an identity out-of-band in order to have write permissions to the chain. When an account writes, all the readers of the chain have reasonable assurances of the author of that write. No company can inject false state as another company without that company's guarded private key. All transactions are also auditable as an additional assurance the data isn't undergoing a malicious act.

tl;dr; interesting use cases for tamper proof federated ledgers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Blockchain (simplified) is a giant excel spreadsheet that you can never edit, only add to. I struggle to think of any applications that is a benefit for, and even then append only databases would already do it better.

One of the benefits is supposed to be decentralization, but people tout that as a benefit for things like house deeds, or identification, or whatever. Imagine how massive an append only excel file of every house with every owner change etc etc included in it would be. Then we once again only have the people who can afford to store that much data storing it, and we are back to where we are now.

It doesn't really solve any problems, it just is a worse version of what already exists.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Something about this comment didn't seem right to me, so I did some quick math:

There are approx 144,000,000 homes (incl apartments, etc) in the US. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605221

Assuming every home is sold 5 times on average, that's 720,000,000 sale records/deeds.

Existing blockchain implementations use IDs that are around 32 bits, or 4 bytes.

A "home sales record" or deed on the blockchain needs to include the buyer and the time/date of sale (8 bytes), along with a cryptographic signature (4-16 bytes). The seller's identity doesn't need to be included because it's always doing to be the previous owner.

So each record is 16-28 bytes, and there are 720,000,000 records. If we go with 28bytes, it would take about 20GB to store all of the deeds for the US. A 500GB hard drive costs $20.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You forget that the blockchain is all about not trusting some middle-man/site, so you need to stock that blockchain yourself, everyone needs to stock that blockchain.

So multiply not only the cost, but also the ecological impact just buying all those drives.

And that's only for *US" housing (I didn't get the timeframe you used to calculate it, is it for like year 2050? Old data stays forever.).

BTW found the guy buying 0.5TB Hard drives ;-)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, everyone would need a copy of the 10s-of-GB blockchain. That's a fraction of the amount of space a single computer game would use, does that seem unreasonable/impractical to you?

And I buy used enterprise 2-3TB drives on eBay :) . I was going to use a 32GB flash drive for my example, but a 500GB HDD is the same price

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fair enough about the size.

Checked out eBay, there are some cheap 2-3Tb drives there! How does it pan out quality wise? I guess they sell them off like after 5 years of usage right?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, that's my understanding. Tbh I don't have a lot of experience with them yet, but I'm building an 8 disk RAID6 array and I decided to go with those used drives. 10 matching disks will be around $120, and I'll have 2 extra drives so I can rebuild the array asap if a drive fails.

Edit: I also backup all of my important files, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if the entire array fails. And a little downtime isn't that big of a deal for my home server, unlike a commercial data center.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

...and 20G that needs to be replicated to tons of nodes if it should be really decentralized.

16-28 bytes seems extremely understated, I think it could easily be off by orders of magnitude.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I find it to be an interesting solution looking for a problem. There could be many applications but I've yet to see one that blockchain could solve better than anything else that we already have, outside of crypto currencies.

Web3 is an interesting thought experiment but I don't see how it would work in real life. It would be extremely slow, data loss would be a daily occurrence and it would be a privacy/security nightmare.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought it sounded interesting when it was new but the more I've learned, the more convinced I am that it's completely useless. I've never seen anything done on a blockchain that couldn't be done faster, cheaper, and more securely in a SQL database. Even the not-a-scam applications are ridiculous and fall apart upon examination. Blockchain as a definitive record of ownership? Absolutely not. There's no way to force a person to update a record. Lose your house in a bankruptcy? The sheriff on his way to evict you isn't going to care that you've got some NFT saying you still own the house. Anything involving contracts at all? If a court can't unilaterally update the blockchain record, then the record is unreliable. But if the government can unilaterally update a record, then you're not relying on community consensus and immutability in the first place.

Blockchain isn't useful for anything important, and it's not a logical choice for anything trivial aside from literally just playing with blockchain stuff for the sake of playing with blockchains. I think it's a dead-end technology.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Blockchain as a definitive record of ownership? Absolutely not.

Oh, its worse than you think.

https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

Once BTC hits enough halvening-cycles, the entire protocol doesn't work anymore. Its more beneficial to fork the blockchain (and collect ~50 transaction fees), rather than work on the head (and only collect ~5 transaction fees).

So if the last block confirmed 100-transactions (aka: collected 100 transaction fees), its more beneficial to undo that block and "steal" ~50 transactions, knowing that you're leaving ~50 transactions for another miner to follow onto your block. (Ex: there are now two blocks: one with ~5 transactions available, the truth... and ~55 transactions available. The lie / false block you created. The lie is more economically beneficial to the next miner, so they'll switch to your block).

It turns out that BTC forgot how to handle ties after the end of the "Free reward", and there's a good chance that "definitive record" is not so definitive.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I have wet dreams about a new text based mesh internet powered by the gemini protocol. Imagine, if you will, instead of paying monthly to your ISP/cell service provider to acess the internet, that instead you bought an 'internet box' once. Where each router/gateway acts both as a self-hosting site for the user, and transmits this site text data to other local routers through LoRaWAN. There are many technical challenges to this kind of networks, one being "how do I check that all other routers have an up-to-date version of any one site?" and blockchain technology seems to fit nicely for that particular issue.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

As we see here on the Fediverse, decentralization works fine without monetization using an actively anti-scaling append only database that emits the pollution of a medium sized country.

The only other good thing that came out of it is it increased the prevalence of digital payment system in the world, but I struggle to think of anything that would actually directly benefit from blockchain.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The value is in the forward signed, immutable ledger written by neutral consensus. This can take a lot of form and be the backbone of many types of applications (and already is used by large firms), the current market for direct public ledgers is a mess and I don't generally agree with much of the last craze beyond the fundamentals needed to manage transfers, ownership and executions. The applications that will use these kinds of networks haven't really been built yet.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The value is in the forward signed, immutable ledger written by neutral consensus.

I have Excel spreadsheets at home though and you can be assured that they haven't changed if you take a hash of them.

In fact, taking cryptographic hashes and signatures of people is automatic with Adobe signature products, and is how I signed for my house mortgage. You know, things that people really don't want changing or someone doing shenanigans with. Just a click here and a send the .pdf over and... yeah, its not that hard in practice.

Signed, immutable proof of the transaction that nobody can manipulate. It also doesn't require a legion of ASICs hashing numbers until the end of time. Because your "blockchain" is vulnerable to the 51% attack if the hashrate ever declines precipitously.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's a lot of words to say nothing. Like, you literally aren't saying anything of substance.

The value is in the forward signed, immutable ledger written by neutral consensus. This can take a lot of form and be the backbone of many types of applications (and already is used by large firms), the current market for direct public ledgers is a mess and I don’t generally agree with much of the last craze beyond the fundamentals needed to manage transfers, ownership and executions.

All of that is word salad. Blockchain is 100% redundant technology that uses obscene amounts of electricity. Why do I need a network of computers around the globe to make sure a contract and checks get signed? Why does it require a global network of computers constantly refreshing themselves and checking for inconsistencies to implement new business? If the smartest minds on Earth actually can't come up with a use case, then it's trash.

Grifters love it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Blockchains come in many forms, the ones you are thinking of are what are called Proof of Work chains, these uses a kind of cryptographic race to secure thier data and use a TON of waste energy as a result. Def not a fan either.

The growing popularity and interest in chains is around forms of Proof Of Stake, these use other internal protocol mechanisms to secure the network and work to run the cryptographic functions as efficiently as possible. Unsurprisingly the fastest blockchains are proof of stake and power wise are similar to traditional applications in utilization.

You don't need any of these networks if you don't want to use them, fundamentally, they arent even networks, they are cryptographic messaging systems. How the data is sent and processed is incidental, you could work out a bitcoin block on pen and paper if you wanted. This concept has extended to a cryptographic tool called Zero Knowledge Proofs, these will be part of next generation identity verification systems and is a fundamental of the W3C standard around DiD, the whole point is for disconnected attestation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe this is my “too old for this shit” moment, but this all just sounds like convoluted non-sense that’s never going to go anywhere. We still have SMS and ATMs that run XP.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

surprisingly small hardware is needed to sign a message. though I do agree that we are still a bit early for workable end-user use cases. People really dont care what the database or app server is, they just want it to work and raw dogging some public node is just a bit much for people, i dont blame them.

more packaged solutions are under development, these will be more like a proper application with the differences of a chain being abstracted by the provider

things like sms, what if i told you SMS would be fine with this, so would smoke signals

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the problem I have with it is the online enthusiasm for it is acting like it’s already going to change my life yet it’s been more than a decade and no one has shown tangible and understandable utility, just marketing bs and grifting.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yea I’ve been hearing that for a decade. Aside from missing out on bitcoin at $300, I’m still waiting. 🤷‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Any sources in large firms using it? I haven’t seen anything other than generic marketing talk.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I can say of the top of my head the JPM and AMEX are running internal ledgers but there are many more, IBM and Accenture co-developed a system called Hyperledger which was given to the Linux Foundation. Its a tool kit for developing and deploying ledger applications primarily targeted at internal corps.

One of the cases these are good for is an easier to manage rights and asset control systems than many products you would pay more for and with less futzing with IAM, LADP or AD.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I see blockchain technology and it's potential as analogous to a globally shared spreadsheet where nobody can go back and change history.

Now, just imagine what billions of humans could do if they could all work on the same spreadsheets without needing to trust each other.

  • Many financial institutions would be unnecessary
  • Ownership can be verified without need of paper and it's risks of destruction, or trusting corporate computer networks. This applies to houses and boats just as much to movies and songs. Imagine commodity/utility music streaming validating your ownership of music via NFT ownership, not locked down by Apple, Amazon, or anyone else?
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What?

I just wrote in Cell A5441 that you owe me 354000,- EUR.

Ownership has to be calculated by all participants, making a Blockchain unneccesary environmental load. You should revisit more reliable sources about the technology.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You would need to start with a literature research. https://scholar.google.com

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I understand your point but that is the worst attempt at discussion I've ever seen lmao

"Too lazy to formulate an argument, look one up yourself"

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