Good memes, bad memes, unite towards a united front.
Can I have a serious question? Are you guys real? Or am I just not on the joke?
I do not like US, but being someone from country controled by USSR. There were ton of people arested just for publicaly saying "Goverment bad".
Please don't discredit me, compared to US, I would be considered socialist and by US right wing maybe communist, but claiming that USSR or current Russia are your friends seems insane.
Yes, Lemmygrad is explicitly communist.
Countries weren't controlled by the USSR, they were a member state of the USSR and had input on democratic central planning and decisions. Please feel free to provide documentation if you feel that my worldview is incorrect.
Modern Russia and the USSR are two entirely different issues.
Countries weren't controlled by the USSR, they were a member state of the USSR and had input on democratic central planning and decisions.
So countries that were forcibly integrated, like the Baltic states, weren't controlled? Then why couldn't they leave the union?
They could. Article 17 of the 1936 Constitution (can be found on https://marxists.org > English > History > Soviet Union > Soviet Government) explicitly allowed every Republic to secede from the U.S.S.R.
So why didn't they? Clearly they never wanted to be a part of the union because prior to WW2 the foreign policy of those countries was neutrality. They created the Baltic entente and at end the of 1938 all three countries passed neutrality laws, Here's the Estonian law. Furthermore after the union collapse all three countries designated the soviet era as an era of foreign occupation. Which part of of history gives you the indication that they actually wanted to be in the union?
Well, why didn't they leave? You now know that they could have left. So why did they choose to stay until the whole bloc collapsed? Are you open to the possibility that the people and the leaders of the time wanted to be part of the USSR? And the people and the leaders who got what they wanted when they left:
~~You said that you would be considered a socialist in the US, so~~You probably know that capitalist states are run by a minority of wealthy people. It's the same in post-Soviet capitalist states, right? (Like Russia, which ~~we agree~~ is a capitalist hellhole like every other capitalist state.)
If you're still with me, could it be that a minority of liberals who complained about 'conditions' in the USSR are the same minority of liberals who today praise capitalism and criticise/slander the USSR?
Edit: realised I was talking to a different person.
Well, why didn’t they leave? You now know that they could have left. So why did they choose to stay until the whole bloc collapsed? Are you open to the possibility that the people and the leaders of the time wanted to be part of the USSR?
Are you open to the possibility that the USSR weren't the good guys and didn't allow those countries to leave? Because the rest of what you're saying is on the premise that the USSR had to have been the good guys.
You said that you would be considered a socialist in the US
Maybe the other guy said that? I haven't said that.
I just realised I was talking to two people and edited my comment.
My other points still stand. You've proved my point: there isn't a 'right' answer, there's only, like always, a class-based answer. If you believe the ruling class you reach one conclusion. If not, you reach a different conclusion.
It's up to you which side you find more authoritative. For me, I'm skeptical of every word that leaves the mouths or pens of people who keep the working class oppressed and living in shit conditions.
You could always ask the people who lived there during that era, which is what I've done. I live in one of those countries. I know how my parents and grandparents lived during the soviet era. I know how my wifes parents and grandparents lived. I've had discussions about the union with people who actually lived in the union. My opinion isn't some "choose which class answer you like", it's based on what people actually went through during that period. If you want to believe whatever you've read on the internet go ahead, but the truth from the actual proletariats (because none of them were capitalists, otherwise I'd not be talking to you as my grandparents or parents would be in Siberia, probably dead) is far from what you people here want to believe. None of them had anything good to say about the union. None of them wanted the union and once they were in the union at no point (until the very end) did they have an option to not be in the union.
While I believe that people had differing opinions (they always do), I find it hard to accept that your anecdotal evidence speaks for all of the Baltic states populations that lived under the USSR.
By reducing everyone's arguments against you to, "you just read what you did on the internet, I talked to real people therefore my argument is more valid", the stance that you're trying to take is not rooted in good faith.
Perhaps being able to cite surveys or census data, or at least some form of statistic, would add some foundation to your argument.
The Baltic states are pretty clearly in the camp of the collapse not being a bad thing.
They are also pretty clearly in the camp of bootlicking US imperialism including participating in their wars, supporting neonazism and celebrating original nazism.
That's how I know I made a good point, when the only thing you reply with is "But they're nazis".
Yes, nazis, people famously known for their lack of bias against communism, which is completely based on rational thought /s
Shitting your own pants and admitting you stan for nazis is not a "good point", it's terrible one.
Your lack of reading comprehension does not make me a "stan for nazis".
Yawn. Follow your leader.
If you talk to certain people in my country, they'll tell that neoliberalism has been a success because it lifted their standard of living. It doesn't make what they say generally true.
Lucky for you, your loved ones survived the shock therapy implemented from the 90s onwards. Then do a survey of the people who didn't survive. Or who had to leave. Or who were trafficked. Or who were bombed by NATO. Or whose shipyards and factories were asset stripped. Then speak to the people who lived under the Tsar or the Nazis or whoever else preceded the Soviets. Then find some people in Ukraine and Russia, who were comrades until the 90s, and ask them what it's been like in the slow, violent aftermath of letting the capitalists back in.
because none of them were capitalists, otherwise I’d not be talking to you as my grandparents or parents would be in Siberia, probably dead
Except if that followed logically, then who was it who took the post-Soviet states into capitalism? Not to mention that the fact that they survived leaves open the possibility that if they were 'capitalists' through that time, that 'capitalists' might not have probably died in Siberia.
Look, I'm not saying the USSR was perfect. I'm not saying I have a perfect understanding of the USSR. I'm saying you need to understand that whether it's explicit or subconscious, you are doing a class analysis by virtue of living in a class society. Most of your information is shaped by the ruling class, which controls the production and distribution of knowledge. It's the same for the people you're going to talk to. You can't escape it. The ruling ideas of the epoch are the ideas of the ruling class. Individual anecdotes based on an insignificant sample size of respondents doesn't change anything.
Lucky for you, your loved ones survived the shock therapy implemented from the 90s onwards. Then do a survey of the people who didn’t survive. Or who had to leave. Or who were trafficked. Or who were bombed by NATO. Or whose shipyards and factories were asset stripped. Then speak to the people who lived under the Tsar or the Nazis or whoever else preceded the Soviets. Then find some people in Ukraine and Russia, who were comrades until the 90s, and ask them what it’s been like in the slow, violent aftermath of letting the capitalists back in.
Well clearly also lucky for me to not have my ancestors be deported to Siberia. Soviet union did not come without costs either. Radical change will always have negative aspects. Ushering in socialism could arguably be considered just as violent as letting capitalism back in.
Except if that followed logically, then who was it who took the post-Soviet states into capitalism? Not to mention that the fact that they survived leaves open the possibility that if they were ‘capitalists’ through that time, that ‘capitalists’ might not have probably died in Siberia.
So we can say the USSR failed to create socialism? Because after half a century of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" the bourgeoisie still existed in those countries as none of them stayed socialist after the collapse.
Look, I’m not saying the USSR was perfect. I’m not saying I have a perfect understanding of the USSR. I’m saying you need to understand that whether it’s explicit or subconscious, you are doing a class analysis by virtue of living in a class society. Most of your information is shaped by the ruling class, which controls the production and distribution of knowledge. It’s the same for the people you’re going to talk to. You can’t escape it. The ruling ideas of the epoch are the ideas of the ruling class. Individual anecdotes based on an insignificant sample size of respondents doesn’t change anything.
The people I talked to, their ruling class for the majority of their life was the "proletariat" class. Their point of view of the world didn't magically change after the union collapsed and capitalism was introduced. If they can't be trusted to give accurate insight into how the world was back then then who can you trust?
Do you have any proof or detail for your claim? Your claim sound like the many disproven slanders against the Communists that is accepted as fact in the school textbooks and "educational" documentaries in Western European diaspora countries. I know that Venezuela under the former Socialist president, Hugo Chavez, tolerate slanders and baseless conspiracy theories against the Socialist government and that "Putin's police guards" allow people to freely sing Ukrainian anthem in Moscow without restrainment. The NATO did stage the 1989 False Flag massacre and write a false narrative that contradicts the original photo evidence by their Western European diaspora journalists (https://web.archive.org/web/19970329011405/http://www.cnd.org:8022/June4th/massacre.html) in China alongside the plothole of why the Chinese citizens somehow did not know about the repression before the 1989 false flag terrorism.
A guy I know, real nice guy but super liberal, was telling me how his Cuban grandfather suffered under Castro. Sure enough, when he got into more details, it turns out his grandfather was a wealthy landlord whose farmland got collectivized and he only had to go to jail after he got very vocal about trying to get people to oppose the revolution (in which he was very much the minority BTW, his own friend turned him in)
Reminds me of when a Finn told me about how the Soviets killed his grandad...and I was like...yeah? 😏 how come? 🥺🥺🥺
What did the Finn say?
When Poland was occupied by communists after the second world war, it was pretty bad. There was very little food, if any at all in stores. I remember specifically that the only thing being in stock in stores was vinegar because the shelves were empty. Everything of value Poland produced, like food, went to the USSR. The only import Poland got were things like matchsticks.
A Poland immigrant in Canada had testified about Communist rule in Poland, so I can expand on your story. There was free food under Communism, but people need to wait in a long line because the Soviet Union used the financial institutions from the Western European countries for the recovery after World War 2. Since the Western Europeans want to sabotage Communism, their institutions attempted to overchange the Eastern European countries with huge debt for the financial assistance and this debt-trapping is the current practice of the Bretton Woods institutions like World Bank and International Monetary Fund to create third world problems in former European colonies. Also when there are evidence that a person is subverting Communist rule, the Communist government will conduct search within a more reasonable ethical boundary than the police search in the US.
Everything of value Poland produced, like food, went to the USSR.
Let's see some sources to support this bold claim. I'll wait.
Stalin was extra hungry after the war, so he personally ate all of Poland's food. Everyone in Poland starved to death 5 times each! I know it is true because I was Poland from 1945-51.
What were conditions like everywhere else in the world after the biggest war the world had ever seen?
"I remember specifically"... Damn, I'm sorry you had to survive on only vinegar and matches, grandpa 🤣
Ahh yes, so we should have just let the naxais have the place. That would obviously have been preferred
Sounds like the stories I've heard from people of that generation in west Germany. Things didn't get better until the Währungsreform of 1948, and didn't get markedly better until the US dumped in money (with strings attached mind) via the Marshall Plan. Europe was decimated by the war, regardless of which class was in charge.
Słuchaj, pierdolisz. PolandIsAStateOfMind napisał wszystko co trzeba, jedynie piszę abyś był świadom że paru polskich komuchów tu jest którzy są chętni do zwalczania typowych głupot jakie ludzie jak ty lubią rozprzestrzeniać.
What a nonsense.
occupied by communists after the second world war
Polish communists occupied their own country?
There was very little food, if any at all in stores.
You might have heard about, you know, the war and the real occupation, nazi one. Requisition, destruction, mass murders, death camps. I wonder why that stopped. Who ended it.
I remember specifically
Unless you are 95 years old i doubt it was "you specifically". And also:
I remember specifically that the only thing being in stock in stores was vinegar because the shelves were empty
At least get your propaganda sorted out, dumbass, those were two different separate pieces, the vinegar one was about the 80's (and equally false as the other one).
Everything of value Poland produced, like food, went to the USSR. The only import Poland got were things like matchsticks.
As evidenced by the rapidly rebuilding and repopulating country being made entirely of matchsticks. Yawn. Seriously at least get something less boring, go read some IPN book or something for more plausibly spun propaganda instead of taking your historical knowledge from Jebzdzidy.
I wonder if they are so used to liberals just going "OMG! That's so horrible! Evil commies! Thank you for sharing your story brave hero!" that they forget when they are talking to people who can use their brains and actually bother to try and understand history.
Yes, this is exactly the case, in Poland you can say the wildest shit about communism, on the Yeonmi Park level, and all you see are the wise gray hair heads solemnly nodding.