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Since taking office at the beginning of 2023, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has been thinking about ways to make the Bundeswehr more attractive as a career.
No amount of money or benefits will ever make me a government's boot licker. Sorry, not sorry
Maybe you personally. But money would actually solve all their problems.
All they provide today is a shitty job with bad pay and no future prospects.
They are not finding enough soldiers because all these soft modern young adults are too selfish for that job, just like companies find no employees because those spoiled brats are too lazy to work. Obviously none of it has to do with not providing reasonable payments of course. So forced labor is the the proposed solution.
TIL they had that.
Austria still does
cold war 2.0 is as shitty as the first one
The number of people who think conscription is just getting ferried to a frontline with a sandwich and a thumbs up is baffling.
forced labour is slavery
maybe folks would sign up to protect their country if they thought it deserved to be protected, or was doing anything for them
Do you say the same about jury duty?
In my opinion, as long as the system for who is required to participate is fair and equitable, then it's fair to consider it a civil duty.
the system for who is required to participate has practically never been fair and equitable, jury duty is not comparable to military service, and forced labour is slavery
civil jury duty is a really weird example to use anyway, since civil jury trials are practically non existent outside the USA
practically never
Soooo... sometimes.
Jury duty is also compulsory labour.
ok
forced labour is slavery
So you're just doubling down on jury duty is slavery instead of considering a nuanced perspective?
Edit: autocorrect
im assuming you mean nuanced
me not agreeing with you doesnt mean i didnt consider your perspective, and saying 'well surely not all forced labour is slavery' isnt nuance
The issue is you're confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.
If you don't do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail. This is the same as eg refusing jury duty or not doing your taxes.
Having compulsory civil duties is not new, nor is it slavery. In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it's practically required for their continued short-term existence.
I'm not even pro-conscription (for my own nation at this time), but "conscription is slavery" is so reductive, and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.
The issue is you’re confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.
seems like a you problem, what with you talking about compulsory labour while i explicitly said forced labour
If you don’t do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail.
"youre not forced to do it, you just get tossed in jail if you dont do it"
In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it’s practically required for their continued short-term existence.
if a country can only motivate its people to actually protect said country by threatening them into doing so, it didnt actually deserve protection
and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.
good, i do not want people discussing the actual pros of slavery
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is "total denial", which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.
I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.
The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.
The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents' generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
i am so glad that you have all of that
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
I would gladly give my life to protect mine
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I've had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with "if".
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style "heroic sacrifice".
I believe it is a good idea, not only will it foster a closer feeling of unity and understanding between citizens, it will also be something all citizens have in common, and something you can talk about with anyone.
I am a bit sad that I never got to do it, I did muster, but failed the hearing test, at the time I was relieved, but now, I miss it sort of.
Being forced to risk your life for something you don't believe in won't create a feeling of unity.
So you don't believe in fighting against invasion by a foregin power?
So you don't believe in freedom? Being forced by anyone to give your life for something is slavery.
I absolutely believe in freedom, but I see mandatory military service as a way of supporting the freedom for the rest of the population.
You do your service and hand it off to the next guy, you get skills and training, the country gets huge number of people who know the basics in a real situation.
There are also plenty of tasks in the military that does not require weapons or killing, in a disaster the services are used to support the civilian society, clearing roads, fighting fires, building temporary bridges, distributing water/food/shelter, providing emergency healthcare, setting up communications.
BTW, you use a very narrow definition of slavery.
There are also plenty of tasks in the military that does not require weapons or killing
I'm sure someone in the military is tasked with cooking food for the whole army but in order to teach someone to prepare a meal you don't put them through mandatory military service which main goal is to bake soldiers capable of shooting on command.
If you believe in forcing everyone with jail as a penalty to learn how to kill people and to obey superior orders you have a narrow definition of freedom.
Freedom is perpetuated through liberty not through constraints
You mention freedom a lot in comparison to military service, but in no society are you completely free, you have laws to follow and you have taxes to pay, so the freedom argument falls a bit flat when you use it so often.
I see military service similar to a tax bill, since if no one wants to do it, the need doesn't go away, it is still needed, and mandatory military service is s good way to solve it.
You have taxes to pay because someone say so and is forcing everyone with force to pay. If you don't pay taxes you get labelled as a criminal and the guards come pick you and escort you to jail, even if the tax you don't want to pay is unjust. If no one wanted to join the military you would have no wars to begin with, russia and israel which are two countries waging war and currently invading another country both have mandatory military service which you get punish if you don't attend.
People can fight for freedom without being forced through a course that aims at taking away their individuality and self-will to turn them into checkers at rulers commands.
If you think that individual freedom fighters are as effective as an army with a command structure, then you are just plain wrong, removing individuallity during fighting is a feature not a bug, obviously individual soldier's talents are an asset and should be used by the military as far as practical, but in the end a soldier is a standardized tool that fit a specific criteria, else they would not be as effective.
If your goal is freedom an army of people who's individuallity has been removed won't get you an inch close to it. If you look around yourself no actual army brings up freedom but war around the globe.
Mandatory military service does not strip the individuallity off of a person, sure while in the military you loose a bit of individuallity, but once you leave the military you get it back.
You are contradicting yourself
In what reality would Germany ever get invaded and not deserve it?
Why do you think they deserve it now?
They're sending weapons to Saudi Arabia and Israel. They put sanctions on Afghanistan that are causing a famine. They're funding Frontex, which kills migrants in the Mediterranean and those who make it get put into concentration camps. And that's just some of it. The German government are war criminals and serial human rights abusers. Anyone who takes up arms to defend these people is complicit.
And don't forget Germany never underwent denazification